I had a brief period of RSI while playing video games in my teens and forced myself to switch to Colemak as a Microsoft-style "natural" keyboard wasn't enough. The Colemak did the trick, until 2 years ago when I suddenly had terrible pain in my fingers and wrists for about two weeks. It eventually disappeared as I began to learn how to use an Kinesis keyboard and experimented with an RF-based Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 or a Kensington SlimBlade Trackball. Adjusting my chair and posture helped enormously also. I eventually discovered the source of the mysterious pain when I tried to solve a Rubik's Cube and it flared up again. Turns out, I'd spent the weekend before my 2 weeks of misery at a hackathon that featured Rubik's Cubes also and I'd spent time learning how to solve one. I do really want to experiment with voice, but these darn open concept offices ... As for gestures, Kinect might come in handy, it also does voice and can focus on one person of many for voice recognition. But I'd almost rather learn a custom, chorded ten-key keyboard than speak every semicolon ... Oh and the trick with the Cherry MX blue "clicky" keyboards is that you don't actually have to press as hard as people normally push the keys. Pressing harder strains your hands further, so the audible and tactile "click" feedback helps train your fingers to not push as hard -- at least, that's my two cents on them. I like it, but not enough to switch from a nicer, concave layout like the Kinesis. Makes a good backup keyboard though, as I can't afford two concave keyboards.
Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
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Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#22This was a pretty interesting read. One thing I can recommend for those with RSI are Cherry MX Blue switch keyboards. As someone with fairly severe RSI, making the change from my normal rubber-dome keyboard over to the Blue Cherry MX switches about 2 years ago has made things significantly better. The pain and discomfort is largely gone-- its still there, of course, but its hardly noticeable.
I'm beginning to have some carpal tunnel pain brought on by heavy keyboard/phone use and my weight lifting regimen. What is it about the Cherry MX blue switch keyboards ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823201... ) that helps with RSI? Just looking at it, it appears like it would be even harder on my wrists.
I'm not sure that I really agree that a good mechanical keyboard is better than a good rubber dome keyboard for people with RSI. The key word there is "good."
The thing about rubber dome keyboards is that they are the cheapest kind of keyboard. So you'll find a lot of absolutely awful ones out there. For example, you'll find ones where the amount of force you need to push in the key is unpredictable (keys feel "sticky"). You'll find ones where it takes too much time for the keys to come back up after they're pushed down. You'll find keyboards that have almost no weight, so you can't type without moving around the keyboard.
In contrast, people pay $100-$200 for a mechanical keyboard (they are a specialty item) and the build quality reflects that. For that money, you usually get something which has a weight in it (so it doesn't feel like you're typing on a hollow plastic shell), has reasonable ergonomics, and key action that is at least tolerable.
I find that I am a heavy typer (I press the keys hard) and I could never get used to mechanical keyboards. I was always "bottoming out." Unfortunately, the hard stop on a mechanical is even harder than the hard stop on a rubber dome. It's like hitting a wall. There are mods you can make to mechanicals to fix this, but you have to do it yourself. (For example, you can put rubber bands underneath each key, to get a more gradual stop when you bottom out.)
Right now I use a good quality rubber dome keyboard with an included trackpad. I find that keeping the keyboard in the correct position on my lap is a lot easier when I don't need a keyboard tray. It really is all about ergonomics.
My advice to you would be to stop lifting weights for a while. Just use machines or something to avoid putting pressure on your wrists. And then get a good quality keyboard. You will need to try it out before you find the right one for you. You'll probably have to order a few online before you find one you like. You will also need to start using good typing posture so be sure to research that.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#23I'm currently trying to solve my RSI problems by going farther than the normal progression of ergonomic peripherals. If that doesn't work, I'll have to give up and go to voice control. I've designed and built my own chording keyboard, which should be 10x less stressful to type on than a normal keyboard. I also have an eye tracker that I'm going to program to use to replace most mouse tasks. I don't like the idea of i…
I'm fortunate that I've never had rsi despite my extreme computer usage, but I'm interested in the possibilities of eye tracking for interfaces. Is it accurate enough? One simple thing that would come very handy is widget focus switching, maybe in combination with some key combo, "switch focus to where I'm looking" - that would save me a lot of reaching for the mouse.
At least at this point it's accurate to about a palm sized region, and there is a cool auto scroll demo. But getting together UI and making it useable is a pretty big project.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#24Watching the PyCon talk the author mentions as inspiration, the thing that seems like it would really kill this for me (even given a good macro set for the editors and applications I need) is the input lag. The whole time, it seems like he's either pausing between commands and able to react to incorrectly interpreted input, or he's speaking a long string of commands and something goes wrong in the middle that invalidates the remainder of his sentence (he ends up in the wrong mode, or in the wrong pane, or something along those lines).
The huge advantage that the keyboard has as an input device is that there's zero delay-- if I make a mistake, I can go back and fix it as soon as I'm able to see and react to it. Speech recognition has this inherent delay to it-- it has to delay execution of a command until it's concluded that there's no other possible interpretation of what you just tried to say. Speech is a lot slower than I can react-- the inherent lag there just seems intolerable.
I suppose one could get used to it if it came down to "use speech recognition or find another job", though.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#25Watching the PyCon talk the author mentions as inspiration, the thing that seems like it would really kill this for me (even given a good macro set for the editors and applications I need) is the input lag. The whole time, it seems like he's either pausing between commands and able to react to incorrectly interpreted input, or he's speaking a long string of commands and something goes wrong in the middle that invalid…
Yeah, it's pretty common for someone to explain why the keyboard is a better input method. And you're right it probably is at this time for healthy developers. However, you should probably stop to consider that the solution isn't for you. It's for people who can't type. Many people have disabilities, for example. This opens up a new world to them. And as for the author, he suffers from RSI, as do many other developers.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#26Watching the PyCon talk the author mentions as inspiration, the thing that seems like it would really kill this for me (even given a good macro set for the editors and applications I need) is the input lag. The whole time, it seems like he's either pausing between commands and able to react to incorrectly interpreted input, or he's speaking a long string of commands and something goes wrong in the middle that invalid…
Corrections on a keyboard can actually be ahead of when you see them - particularly during laggy SSH sessions - when you realize you've struck a key incorrectly a tiny moment after doing so, and hit backspace quickly.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#27Watching the PyCon talk the author mentions as inspiration, the thing that seems like it would really kill this for me (even given a good macro set for the editors and applications I need) is the input lag. The whole time, it seems like he's either pausing between commands and able to react to incorrectly interpreted input, or he's speaking a long string of commands and something goes wrong in the middle that invalid…
Like the author of the article, I've been making the switch to programming by voice. At first, the delay was really jarring, but you get used to it.
You're also completely correct about how when you speak a chain of commands, one of the commands in the middle getting messed up can invalidate the rest. That happens a lot. You learn to speak in shorter chains, and also to make the commands phonetically distinct.
That said, both the delay and the inaccuracy problems can be greatly ameliorated by a fast CPU and a good sound card. I don't have any benchmarks, but I have noticed the difference since upgrading.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#28EVERYONE who suffers from RSI should read this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1269951
I read it about a year ago, and it was probably the single most important article I've read in my entire life.
Some background: I've been using computers since I was a little kid. Used to play videos games a whole ton. Around the age of 15, I started having severe RSI-related pain in my hands. Even after I stopped gaming, I could never get away from the keyboard and mouse, because I was a technology professional.
Fast forward 15 years. I'd been dealing with constant pain every day for as long as I could remember. My hands hurt even when I wasn't typing. It was bad enough that I was considering changing my line of work.
I'd tried every type of medical remedy under the sun. I'd seen (many) doctors, physical therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, etc., but I couldn't find any sort of treatment that provided anything but temporary pain relief.
Through some stroke of incredible luck, I stumbled across this article randomly while looking for something else. I read it and found Aaron's experience closely mirrored mine in a lot of ways. I immediately bought the book he recommended, started reading it on my Kindle, and began following the advice contained within.
Two weeks later, I was almost entirely pain-free. Now a year out, I can type all day without even the slightest twinge of pain. Seem too good to be true? I probably would've said the same thing if it hadn't happened to me.
I will say one thing -- I've recommended this book to a number of people at this point, but not all of them have had the same kind of result I have. I've noticed the ones who really buy into it and become convinced that their pain has a psychosomatic basis see their pain disappear. The ones who still stick to the idea their pain is caused by an previous injury or old age -- those folks don't seem to get much benefit.
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#29Very interesting. Not sure if I could live with the input lag myself, however.
I've been a full time developer since 1998 or thereabouts, but have been coding since I was a child. Early on when I started working full time I found myself quickly getting RSI fatigue and tingling symptoms. I switched to a Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and various trackballs; this greatly ameliorated the growing pain.
In the past few years, however, I've made the switch to gaming grade laser mice (e.g. the Logitech G9X) and have almost no issues. The high sensitivity and precision these allow for at high DPI settings are great vs RSI. Furthermore, since a shoulder fracture earlier this year (now healed) when I was forced to use only mainly left arm for some time, I've kept up the use of left hand mouse. At clients I'll have it on left hand side, at home office on the right hand side. I believe ambidextrous use of the mouse has a lot of benefits, spreading the effort level being the biggest of them.
For keyboards, I touch type and made the switch to mechanical keyboards (Logitech G710+ with O ring dampened MX Browns) around 1.5 years ago - I'm not getting any additional pain as a result. I am however kind of interested in getting a more ergonomic mechanical keyboard for use at client spaces, to preemptively combat the RSI risk. Was held off by the cost, however I guess this means I'll be reading reviews of the TEK vs the Kinesis Advantage again shortly. ;)
As a related issue, I believe back pain is just as critical as RSI. The only way for myself to combat this is through consistently exercising. I ride 100-150km per week, mainly commuting but also MTB XC single trails whenever time permits, and try to get my deep squats, deadlifts, shoulder presses and bench presses done 1-2 times per week at gym. Only riding isn't enough; I find the gym work essential for fighting back pain, no matter what kind of chair I use - which happens to be a Herman Miller Aeron at home, and some random chair at work.
Long post, sorry. My final comment / tip will be to set up JustGetFlux for those late night coding sessions. I'll leave it at that. :)
Re: Programming by Voice: Staying Productive Without Harming Yourself
#30EVERYONE who suffers from RSI should read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1269951 I read it about a year ago, and it was probably the single most important article I've read in my entire life. Some background: I've been using computers since I was a little kid. Used to play videos games a whole ton. Around the age of 15, I started having severe RSI-related pain in my hands. Even after I stopped gaming, I c…
An alternative data point: I had severe RSI several years ago, to the point of thinking that I would have to stop programming professionally alltogether. What worked for me was starting to use a break program (10 seconds micro breaks every 5 minutes, exercises for a few minutes every 45 minutes) and switching to a more ergonomic keyboard and mouse. It worked well for me, and I am now completely recovered. More details in "How I Beat Repetitive Stress Injury" http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/
Regardless of what works - any signs of RSI should be acted on immediately! It won't get better by itself.