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Your language sucks

garrett.damore.org

21–30 of 133 posts

Re: Your language sucks

#21
post #15

Clearly tongue-in-cheek, and informative. So nice somehow. But still: the fact that English phonology and orthography are only lightly related, and hardly anyone is willing to do the effort to fix this, should give the author second thoughts on complaining about others' artifacts and not complaining about the ones in English. Many languages have pure or nearly-pure phonetic orthographies, which are a pleasure to use.…

> and informative.

There's a lot of half-knowledge and misdirection in this blog post, though.

* Languages aren't writing systems, and vice-versa.

* There are often decent reasons and upsides to the things he calls out as sucking. His rant on Hangul, for example - for human users, the morpho-syllabic grouping of letters into blocks in Korean writing tends to be beneficial, because they make the orthography of morphemes in different contexts more regular and morpheme reuse smoother. I also tend to consider the way Hangul is implemented in Unicode actually quite clever (you can use a formula to map from the code points of the individual letters to the code points of the pre-composed blocks). (I've contrasted Chinese and Hangul a little in this LWN comment: http://lwn.net/Articles/608260/)

* The German ß isn't a simple ligature for 'ss'. It has a different history, an orthographic dimension and also serves as a useful prounciation hint.

* Point 5, "The width of a character depends on context", is full of half-knowledge. First of, it's not "Jamo vowel" - 자모 (ja-mo) is the Korean word for "letter", so it's "vowel jamo" if anything. The alphabet is called 한글 (han-gul). Second, combining characters aren't in any way unique to Asian scripts in Unicode. Unicode contains separate code points for the individual Hangul letters and the blocks they can be combined into. Unicode also contains separate code points for Latin letters and the various diacritics and accents they combine with in Latin-derived Western scripts, along with code points for those combinations. For human users, these sort of consistent combinatorics in a script are a boon, and that Unicode chooses to represent both primitive elements and combined versions is a general trait of Unicode.

In general, the thrust here is "your writing systems sucks for me while doing my job", which is subject to this guy's performance and qualifications. It's not the same as "writing system sucks for its users". I find the specter of stuff like this catching on as memes among linguistically and culturally ignorant hackers (because hey, we write English, so we're in the doing-it-right camp, right?) frightening, because programmer convenience is only one factor among many, and most likely not the most important one.

Re: Your language sucks

#22
post #8

The points made may be salient, but the tone is so condescending as to be nearly unreadable without getting angry. A large number of his points around languages that are radically different from English could be summed up as: "Your language sucks to deal with in computing because your native country didn't develop computing machinery first." This fairly reeks of tone-deafness.

On one hand, I realize it's totally meant tongue-in-cheek. So I don't want to pick on the article, because it's useful and funny. On the other hand, I've been seeing this attitude in regards to other topics lately. "Why can't humans be perfect... like this machine?" Well, guess what, bub. We came first, and this stupid computer had better get used to it. Me, I like my clumsy, imperfect analog world.

Really? It just sounds condescending and arrogant in a very Anglo-centric way even if I try to read the satire between the lines.

If that was the intention, the author isn't very good at it.

Re: Your language sucks

#24

These are human languages created and used by humans, they weren't planned, they just happened. They get used independently with loosely applied rules. I'm not really sure what the point of this article was. Was it to state that human language != programming language? Thanks for the revelation. I will surely stay posted to receive further brain-burstingly deep insights.

Yep, languages are not made to be easily encoded in binary form.

Also, symbol systems are just tiny bits of what a human language really is. In regards to grammar/semantics and phonetics for example, English is painfully loose to deal with in a programmatic way. That's just the way things are.

That said, I believe Unicode's approach to inclusion of new characters in the set is wrong. It shouldn't be so dynamic. Unicode needs a smaller base, a standard extension system and standard extensions (in a standard extension format, reviewed in long but predictable timeframes, lets say every 10 or 20 years). The current system is a pain.

Re: Your language sucks

#25

The points made may be salient, but the tone is so condescending as to be nearly unreadable without getting angry. A large number of his points around languages that are radically different from English could be summed up as: "Your language sucks to deal with in computing because your native country didn't develop computing machinery first." This fairly reeks of tone-deafness.

Yes, the tone is a far cry from the cool-headed, neutral, sterile aesthetic one would expect from technical or academic writing. However, the article is very informative, and should probably be bookmarked for later reference --- in case one ever has to do this kind of work.

The article may have been written in anger, and thus it provokes anger. Good! Programmers who don't get angry while solving hard, inconvenient, uncomfortable problems are, in my experience, unlikely to truly solve those problems --- sweeping issues under the rug, or passing the problem to someone else is more likely. Anger is a very powerful motivational force if honed correctly, whereas contentment often leads to docility, complacency, and quitting.

I find that problems that make you angry or enraged are simultaneously: important and instructive. Most performance problems (or even multi-threading problems), for example, fall into this category.

Re: Your language sucks

#26

The points made may be salient, but the tone is so condescending as to be nearly unreadable without getting angry. A large number of his points around languages that are radically different from English could be summed up as: "Your language sucks to deal with in computing because your native country didn't develop computing machinery first." This fairly reeks of tone-deafness.

He says they suck to deal w/ in computing because they're hugely more complicated than English and Russian which have very small, simple alphabets that are very easy to process.

Computing was born in English speaking places (as far as I am aware), probably why it doesn't cater well for more complex languages.

Re: Your language sucks

#30
As a Finnish speaker, I must disappoint you that both Russian and English do have broken alphabets (although this might not affect their character coding). English makes extensive use of silent letters and letters whose pronunciation is dependent on the context (word) they appear in (take e in "context" and "appear" as an out of hat example). I haven't studied much Russian, but I know that the letter ъ in their alphabet is never pronounced, and instead used to modify the pronunciation of the preceding letter.
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