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Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

pipeline.corante.com

21–30 of 56 posts

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#21

Derek’s blog is one of the best blog’s I have read. If you want to learn about the pharmaceutical industry and how the process of drug discovery really works (or doesn’t work) then I recommend it highly. On topic I wouldn’t want to work with peroxide peroxides either :) Derek often has write up about what some of the really crazy organic chemists who work on unstable compounds do - truly eye opening for someone with…

Agreed. My favorite is still any post discussing Flouride bonds, particularly FOOF http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_won...

Fluorine can be so dramatic.

I witnessed a test of a small (500 lb thrust) H2/F2 rocket engine. The fuel & oxidizer were fed into the combustion chamber with small turbo pumps, which was the point of the test. The native fluoride protective coating failed in the F2 turbo pump, and there was an explosion with subsequent metal/fluorine fire.

Blockhouse sealed off and we all grabbed the Scott packs as a yellowish cloud of fluorine drifted by, setting fire to sagebrush as it went. Can't beat exotic propellants for excitement.

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#22
I was one of those kids that read that the original Bell jetpack used Hydrogen Peroxide with a silver catalyst for "fuel". I tried it on the peroxide I bought from the drug store and it didn't work. So I figured "oh it just needs to be more concentrated." My friend and I built a pretty crude still and about 10 gallons of 5% hydrogen peroxide. I don't know what the concentration was when we finished, but I do remember trying to pour some into a steel pipe which was to be our "tank" for our test rocket. To say that I was startled by the pipe being yanked out of my hand by the steam exploding out of its end would be an understatement :-) We spent the rest of the afternoon "blowing up" ant hills in the desert by pouring like a quarter up of our distillate on to them.

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#23

It is a bit frustrating to read this when you lack the necessary intuition. Why is a bond strong or weak, what do these atoms want to bond with and how is this all related to stuff blowing up?

Let me try my hand at simply explaining this.

Atoms are composed to two sections:

A positively charged center -- the nucleus.

A negatively charged outside -- the electron cloud.

When several atoms get together, they do so because their electron clouds start intermingling. This sharing of their electrons is fundamentally what a bond is.

A bond is strong when both of the atoms really want their electrons to intermingle. Conversely, a weak bond is when the atoms are "forced" to be next to each other and intermingle. Strong bond = opposite poles of a magnet next to each other. Weak bond = similar poles of a magnet next to each other.

Somewhat counterintuitively, it's not the fact that the bond's want to separate from each other that makes something really explosive/reactive.

To really understand what's going on, you have to take a look at the energetics (thermodynamics) of how a reaction proceeds. The tendency of the physical world is always towards disorder (entropy). Rather than becoming more ordered, every single atom in the universe wants to be more comfortable.

Think back to our magnet analogy. Magnets with the same pole facing each other really don't want to be next to each other. In fact, they'd LOVE to find another magnet with the opposite pole facing them. The magnets which have a weak bond find it really, really easy to separate. In fact, almost anything will split the connection. However, those magnets, once separated, must find another (opposite) partner for them to pair up with. The amount of energy that they release when they find their perfect mate is evidenced by the fact that the magnets will literally hop across short distances and smack together in a satisfying *crack.

What we also know in thermodynamics is that energy cannot be created, nor destroyed. Thus the net energy in any reaction must be equal on both sides. We know a couple of things:

The energy required to split the weak bond is really, really little.

The energy released when a strong bond is formed is a lot (in fact, you hear the release of energy in the form of heat and sound!).

Atoms prefer strong bonds to weak ones (entropy).

Putting everything together, when you have an molecule with extremely weak bonds (HOOOH), it takes almost no effort for those bonds to come apart. However, when those oxygens go find other molecules to bond with, that releases some energy. Thus NET ENERGY is heavily favored in the exothermic (release of energy) direction. When enough of those super weak bonds are broken, and when enough of the strong bonds are formed rapidly, you have a simultaneous release of a huge amount of heat --- an explosion.

Sorry if that's a little long, but I tried to explain your questions. (Which was a fundamentally very interesting question!)

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#24

It is a bit frustrating to read this when you lack the necessary intuition. Why is a bond strong or weak, what do these atoms want to bond with and how is this all related to stuff blowing up?

The science background expected is pretty high. Some things are hard to understand without the background, but in this case it is pretty easy. Explosive chemicals have bonds between the atoms that are under a lot of stress (think of it like a wound up elastic band). An explosion occurs when the stressed bond breaks (the elastic band is let go). A chemical like the one discussed has several bonds that are under massiv…

That's actually very incorrect.

Bond breakage is ALWAYS endothermic. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZOm8L9oCwLMC&pg=PA202&lpg=P...

Edit: Sorry, I hate leaving one-sentence rebuttals.

The energy required to break the bonds are so low that in comparison, the energy released when the products of the reaction are formed is very high. This giant disparity in energy released at the same time creates a sharp increase of heat and light (boom).

Also, your company is pretty neat. Any way for me to directly contact you?

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#25

I was one of those kids that read that the original Bell jetpack used Hydrogen Peroxide with a silver catalyst for "fuel". I tried it on the peroxide I bought from the drug store and it didn't work. So I figured "oh it just needs to be more concentrated." My friend and I built a pretty crude still and about 10 gallons of 5% hydrogen peroxide. I don't know what the concentration was when we finished, but I do remember…

How? How!?

How is it you always have cool and relevant stories!?

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#26

It is a bit frustrating to read this when you lack the necessary intuition. Why is a bond strong or weak, what do these atoms want to bond with and how is this all related to stuff blowing up?

Let me try my hand at simply explaining this. Atoms are composed to two sections: A positively charged center -- the nucleus. A negatively charged outside -- the electron cloud. When several atoms get together, they do so because their electron clouds start intermingling. This sharing of their electrons is fundamentally what a bond is. A bond is strong when both of the atoms really want their electrons to intermingle…

I found this super helpful. Thank you very much for taking the time to write it.

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The science background expected is pretty high. Some things are hard to understand without the background, but in this case it is pretty easy. Explosive chemicals have bonds between the atoms that are under a lot of stress (think of it like a wound up elastic band). An explosion occurs when the stressed bond breaks (the elastic band is let go). A chemical like the one discussed has several bonds that are under massiv…

That's actually very incorrect. Bond breakage is ALWAYS endothermic. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZOm8L9oCwLMC&pg=PA202&lpg=P... Edit: Sorry, I hate leaving one-sentence rebuttals. The energy required to break the bonds are so low that in comparison, the energy released when the products of the reaction are formed is very high. This giant disparity in energy released at the same time creates a sharp increase of h…

Of course what I am explaining is incorrect, but I am trying to give the GP an idea of what is going on. Using my elastic band analogy, releasing the band requires energy (it is endothermic), but it get across the idea that there is a great deal of potential energy stored that is released once the band is released (i.e. a small amount of energy put into breaking a very weak bond will, after all the chemical rearrangements, release a lot of energy).

Sure if you want to get in contact with me just write to any of the contact emails on my companies website - it will get to me in the end :)

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. My favorite is still any post discussing Flouride bonds, particularly FOOF http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_won...

Fluorine can be so dramatic. I witnessed a test of a small (500 lb thrust) H2/F2 rocket engine. The fuel & oxidizer were fed into the combustion chamber with small turbo pumps, which was the point of the test. The native fluoride protective coating failed in the F2 turbo pump, and there was an explosion with subsequent metal/fluorine fire. Blockhouse sealed off and we all grabbed the Scott packs as a yellowish cloud…

I'm intrigued: what's a Scott pack? Is is just breathing apparatus? But since the gas cloud is setting organic matter on fire surely you'd need more than that?

Or is it just a good pair of running shoes?

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#29
post #19

I spent some time at the remaining facility in the country making the really interesting rocket fuel. The most fascinating thing to me (aside from the multiple armed security checkpoints required to visit the food lab we were visiting) was the setup of the buildings. Nearly all of them were ~500yds apart, set in between massive ~50ft tall, ~100ft wide earthen berms. The really interesting buildings had escape slides…

I used to work at a pilot plant that did large scale synthesis of pharmaceuticals. The plant was a concrete structure with each reactor surrounded on three sides by two foot thick concrete walls. The interesting thing was that there was no outside wall to the building, just a woven steel curtain. If something did explode you wanted a path for the debris. On the outside of the building was a curved ramp, like a skateb…

My favourite chemical bunkers are the ones with a couple of feet deep gravel on the roof. So if there is an explosion, the resulting fire is smothered I assume.

Re: Things I Won't Work With: Peroxide Peroxides

#30
post #6

I'm always amazed at the hazardous chemistry that some labs do! They are obviously taking the necessary precautions, but I'm not sure I'd have the guts to do it. I worked as a chemist for 7 years and witnessed 4 serious accidents, 3 of the 4 due to oxidizing agents (2 of them were peroxides). Some of the folks have scars to this day because of it.

Well, at least chemical reactions fall into the "fail early and loudly" category. You know something is wrong.

Radioactivity and virus work strikes me as possibly more dangerous because of the relatively silent nature of the failures.

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