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Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

independent.co.uk

21–30 of 106 posts

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#21
post #10

Hongkonger here. I help out with a number of volunteer tech groups in HK, including a few resistance groups. I'm also on the Hong Kong Python User Group committee. We are hoping for the best but would like to prepare for the worst, so I'd like to ask fellow HNers here who have been in similar situations before: what can we expect to encounter in terms of disruptions in communications? Under those situations, how can…

You need to power devices and protect said devices. Water will come crashing in eventually so prepare for that. Tends to disrupt communications right quick. Those umbrellas did a bang-up job deflecting spray from police but won't for riot trucks.

Apps like Bambuser allow live streaming but also leak details like GPS coordinates if not careful about what settings are turned on. If you end up getting shot at, you don't want to lead aggressors right to you.

Malicious people will get users to spread malware, state entities like intel agencies just as well as thieves. People will be looking for 'things' that work, be aware of these 'things' be it a VPN or chat app.

You will be monitored via ISP level hardware like activists were in Syria via BlueCoat equipment. Encryption is your friend for anything outside of very public channels. Try to coordinate outside of the most public channels before broadcasting plans widely.

Moderation of chat as you mentioned is key, consider setting up chat channels in places that can be moderated like IRC. Having a wide assortment of moderators is good for eyes on the problem, but focus on technical problems like flooders instead of political/social. All but the most aggressive trolls can simply be ignored, they will flame out if not fed.

Overall depending on centralized communications is a problem, internet can and will be cut if deemed a problem. Walkie-talkies and other independent devices can help keep crowds coordinated. But really police and intel agencies are in love with the data mobile/internet networks yield. Expect IMSI catchers and other nefarious hardware sniffing communications.

edit: Many I knew from Syria no longer exist, don't get shot. That disrupts communications permanently.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#22
The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable.

Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it.

You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning.

Of course the people have a right to protest but people should really think about what they are doing instead of getting delusional in the name of "freedom".

Show some class for once, have a measured response not this circus that is clearly going to end in a terrible car crash. It's already being hijacked by troublemakers.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#23

The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable. Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it. You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning. Of course the people have a right…

Those delusional freedom lovers with their low-class demands for better representation. Next thing you know, they might start looting tea and throwing it in the harbour.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#24

Honest question: how effective are these sorts of protests in achieving their intended goals? Maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias, but it seems all the major demonstrations in the last few decades (Tiananmen Square, Iraq War, Occupy Wall Street, post-Iranian election, etc) have sizzled out and failed. The one exception I can think of is the anti-Proposition 8 protests, but Prop 8 was defeated in the courts thr…

You're missing some big ones, I think. In the last few years protest movements have effected regime changes in Tunisia, Egypt, and Ukraine. Those transitions have been at all smooth, but it's hard to claim the protests in each of those cases weren't hugely influential.

The protests in Ferguson, MO are still playing out so it's hard to say what exactly the effects will be, but I suspect not nothing.

In Hong Kong protests in 2003 helped stop the passage of a security law restricting activity that the mainland Chinese government doesn't like (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_1_July_marches). More recently protests helped prevent a "moral education" bill from being passed here also.

In general I think it's a bit shortsighted to look at protest movements and think they're ineffective because many of them do not produce change. Protests are (generally) a way for people without a lot of political power to have their voices heard. They're going to fail a lot of the time, because protest movements start when people don't have other kinds of leverage or power.

Also, I think it's important to remember that at least part of the goal of a protest movement is getting attention. The Occupy Wall Street protests didn't directly change much, but they did create a national (and international) conversation about equality that didn't really exist before. It's a lot harder to evaluate that kind of indirect result, but I think it would be a mistake to discount it. (The OWS protests also spurred the creation of Occupy Central, one of the organizations that's leading these protests in Hong Kong.)

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#25

The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable. Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it. You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning. Of course the people have a right…

Those delusional freedom lovers with their low-class demands for better representation. Next thing you know, they might start looting tea and throwing it in the harbour.

I for one am waiting for the looting of LV and Gucci bags.

It's going to be epic.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#26

Honest question: how effective are these sorts of protests in achieving their intended goals? Maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias, but it seems all the major demonstrations in the last few decades (Tiananmen Square, Iraq War, Occupy Wall Street, post-Iranian election, etc) have sizzled out and failed. The one exception I can think of is the anti-Proposition 8 protests, but Prop 8 was defeated in the courts thr…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#27
post #18
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, that's a very good question and one that demonstrators rarely think about. Frankly, and until somebody convinces me otherwise, I think that Occupy Central was and is a strategic failure if the end goal is gain a better form of democracy in Hong Kong. China has shown time and again that it will not back down when things get physical, and in for example, the case of Tiananmen square, the government got m…

What other alternatives do you have to suggest to fight for a true democracy?

Two thing come to mind as a starting point: Negotiation and focusing on building Hong Kong's economy.

Negotiation: The truth is, HK politics is very much like American politics. It consists of people blocking any progress on anything because the two sides are so deeply divided. Instead, I suggest making an honest effort to negotiate and take things step by step. For example, the central issue to the protests - the universal suffrage framework described in the Basic Law is strictly better than the current system. Accepting it while signaling that something even better is desired and will continue to be brought up would have been more productive. (Note that the whitepaper came out after the threat to occupy central).

Economy - One of the subtexts of the whole issue is Hong Kong's decreasing relevance in relation to China and indeed on the world stage. The stronger HK is, the more leverage HK has. Instead, real wages are barely increasing, rent continues to skyrocket, and there is basically no economy besides finance - and in that HK's competitive advantage shrinks every year. Instead of saying things like "we are willing to sacrifice the economy if it gives us true democracy", I think it should be accepted that destroying the economy is not likely going to get democrats what they want, and that a better economy would a) free up more people to be able to worry about politics rather than just putting food on the table, and b) make China think harder about killing the golden goose.

Occupy Wallstreet was a game of brinksmanship, but unfortunately that only works when both sides have something to lose. China has nothing to lose today.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#28

The amount of hyperbole in this thread (and in the protest) is unbelievable. Protesters are quick to talk this up as the next Tiananmen Square when in fact looking at the ground it's nothing like it. You just need to look at Hong Kong culture to see that this is being overblown. It's the HK style, there's no middle ground, it's either the end of the world or nothing worth mentioning. Of course the people have a right…

I was wondering why they're using the Occupy brand. Is it now just used for everything remotely related to protests?

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those delusional freedom lovers with their low-class demands for better representation. Next thing you know, they might start looting tea and throwing it in the harbour.

I for one am waiting for the looting of LV and Gucci bags. It's going to be epic.

I should probably have laid the sarcasm on a bit thicker.

Re: Hong Kong protest: Why are pro-democracy supporters staging a sit-in?

#30
post #24

Honest question: how effective are these sorts of protests in achieving their intended goals? Maybe I'm suffering from confirmation bias, but it seems all the major demonstrations in the last few decades (Tiananmen Square, Iraq War, Occupy Wall Street, post-Iranian election, etc) have sizzled out and failed. The one exception I can think of is the anti-Proposition 8 protests, but Prop 8 was defeated in the courts thr…

You're missing some big ones, I think. In the last few years protest movements have effected regime changes in Tunisia, Egypt, and Ukraine. Those transitions have been at all smooth, but it's hard to claim the protests in each of those cases weren't hugely influential. The protests in Ferguson, MO are still playing out so it's hard to say what exactly the effects will be, but I suspect not nothing. In Hong Kong prote…

At the climate change protest in NYC (over 300k in attendance), there seemed to be consensus & understanding of the necessary systemic change.

A complaint about Occupy Wall Street is there was not much unity. There seems to be unity & respect among the groups now.

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