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Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

nytimes.com

21–30 of 48 posts

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#21
post #6

Atul Gawande wrote about 'non-human' tools in medicine [0]. He advocated using checklists but he has also written about other tools. One I remember was a flow chart to predict some sickness. It outperformed humans solidly. The biggest problem with checklists, flow charts and software (one older example is MYCIN [1]) is adaption. If the medical practitioners don't want the systems they are going to fail. He also write…

Average Is Over by Cowen (2013) has this exact same thesis - for the next 100 years, human + machine > AI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_is_Over

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors are expensive. Computers are cheap. The more we can replace doctors, teachers, taxi drivers and other baumol workers with machines, the more consumer surplus is generated.

How would improved diagnosis bring down the price of medicine? Medicine doesn't only consist of diagnosis, there's also treatment and infrastructure. It's obvious that any improvement in diagnosis of illness cuts down on misdirected treatment and improves public health, saving money would be a secondary effect. Besides, the fact that healthcare in the US is so expensive compared to the rest of the Western world is du…

How would improved diagnosis bring down the price of medicine?

I didn't say improved diagnosis would. I said replacing humans with machines would. If the process were 1 hour with a diagnostic bot and 1 hour of treatment with a doctor, that will allow 2 patients to be treated in 2 hours of a doctor's time (increasing supply and reducing price).

Your political baiting is completely orthogonal to the point. If you play politics and tweak the payment system (e.g. adopting India's excellent capitalism-based system), a doctor still spends 1 hour diagnosing and 1 hour treating. 1 patient is treated rather than 2.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#24
Atul Gawande's checklist manifesto emphasizes the need for processes while solving complex problems like surgery. A doctor can forget to wash his hand while a machine cannot forget. So that is a place where computer assisted techniques make sense just like the case of flying a plane where the autopilot can take care of most things except when things go wrong and humans have to take over. I don't think anyone with adequate experience in healthcare and technology would make wild claims about replacing doctors with machines. There are plenty of places where machines can aid doctors and simplify processes at scales thereby letting doctors focus on more complex things. That's how the automobile industry evolved and so will healthcare. But doctor's will always be needed. They would just be doing different things or existing things in a different way.

There are plenty of people in this part of the world (Eg. India) where people are just getting to the point of trusting a ATM machine with cash withdrawal. Assuming machines become better than doctors at asking patients the right kind of questions, knowing when they are lying or just not able to communicate their problem, there is still a significant barrier and probably a generation of cultural changes that would make it acceptable to have a machine as your primary care giver. Diagnostics have been using complex technology for a while, so there is no doubt about technology improving the decision making process. However diagnosis is just one and probably a small part of the healthcare process. Actually improving the patients health requires following a treatment plan and adherence to lifestyle and medical processes. Most people just fail to comply due to behavioral reasons. This is where technology and so call 'AI' can play a role. By understanding individual human behavior patterns and guiding people to do small changes that would improve their health outcomes. We have been working on fixing this problem for people with chronic conditions like diabetes at http://www.janacare.com.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#26
Of all mainstream professions (including software developers) medical doctors have the highest average IQ. They understood very well how dangerous for their mortgages and standard of living a computer doctor can be. The MD lobby in US have fought tooth and nail since the 1980s to stall advance in this area.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#27
post #16

"Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor? " only if it's pre-programmed to be > 40 min late for each appointment

Seriously, what is the cause for this in American medicine? Every time I go in for something simple, I have to go through about 3 layers of administrative people before even a nurse practitioner sees me. I'd be really glad if I could interact with a computer-based system in the mean time.

The doctor starts on time. Patient one requires slightly more time than scheduled...repeat for other patients. Also doctors have other tasks than seeing patients: reviewing lab work (part of seeing patients?), pharmaceutical sales reps, signing paperwork, etc.

Automation would be nice, but not sure how you could remove all the time sinks in US Medicine.

/not a doctor, just observations as an end user.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, what is the cause for this in American medicine? Every time I go in for something simple, I have to go through about 3 layers of administrative people before even a nurse practitioner sees me. I'd be really glad if I could interact with a computer-based system in the mean time.

The doctor starts on time. Patient one requires slightly more time than scheduled...repeat for other patients. Also doctors have other tasks than seeing patients: reviewing lab work (part of seeing patients?), pharmaceutical sales reps, signing paperwork, etc. Automation would be nice, but not sure how you could remove all the time sinks in US Medicine. /not a doctor, just observations as an end user.

and some patients miss appointments, and nobody plans to be ill so there are last-minute "squeeze-me-in" appointments, etc. etc. Some practices manage this much better than others though.

Re: Can a Computer Replace Your Doctor?

#30
post #5
post #4

What I would like to see more in these discussions is the possibility of using computers for triage in medicine...too often, these kinds of "will computers replace us" discussions focus on the computers doing everything ...but how about a computer being trained to do as much of the "mechanical" work of a doctor's judgment as possible? Leaving the humans to focus on the 5% An example I have in mind is Apgar's score, a…

Well said. That's pretty much what I'm trying to do with my new startup, Enlitic: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/530261/a-startup-hopes-... Furthermore, the things the author of the NYT piece complains about are exactly the things that even the simplest machine learning algorithms handle easily. I'm worried articles like this will hold back the adoption of effective analytics in medicine, since doctors have no…

I think that people often miss why people go to doctors in the first place and why they trust them. In society a doctor was historically always a very well respected individual. I think it's worth reflecting on that. Why were they respected? Did it help the patient that they were respected?

Considering the impact of placebo medicines, I can't help but wonder if there's an element of psychology that needs to be noticed and addressed here (and whether it is actually key that a doctor is respected (for the right reasons, obviously. Specifically: that they will be able to address the problem addressed to them)). My hypothesis is that a good doctor is someone who asks the right questions but also looks for questions that need to be asked for that individual's needs. Example: the patient has the symptom of a broken arm, but why is that. Is there something more here? Is there some form of domestic violence involved? Or... do they have a weakness in the opposite arm, and when cycling they are more likely to fall off.

One of my doctor friends said to me that they'd recently shown that the better the Doctor communicates with a patient, the lower the chance of lawsuits. I like to call it 'managing expectations', from the whole project managementy world although someone will shoot me for saying that!

It may well be the case that on paper checklists work best, but I assert that there's a lot more personality and social interaction to a doctor than anyone initially realises. The challenge in this space is marrying the two concepts.

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