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China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#21

Post by sdrothrock »

veidr wrote: post #20

I've watched with fascination as the Japanese Senkaku islands slowly and gradually came to be labeled 'disputed' in the western media, after China's recent claims. It seems like China has figured out a way to hack the media (the free media outside of China, I mean -- the government there obviously has root on Chinese TV and newspapers). Japanese ownership of this territory is basically as settled under international…

> because none of the countries whose territories China is going after -- not even Japan -- would do well in a straight up military conflict.

I'm curious about why you don't think Japan would do well in a straight-up military conflict.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#22

Post by Danieru »

veidr wrote: post #20

I've watched with fascination as the Japanese Senkaku islands slowly and gradually came to be labeled 'disputed' in the western media, after China's recent claims. It seems like China has figured out a way to hack the media (the free media outside of China, I mean -- the government there obviously has root on Chinese TV and newspapers). Japanese ownership of this territory is basically as settled under international…

The Economist has talked about their coverage of the Senkakus in a few videos. They have mentioned a few times how if they write anything without mentioning the "dispute" they take heat. Thus they resort to always using both names.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#23

Post by onethree »

mje__ wrote: post #9

Fascinating article. I also really enjoyed the presentation - the mix of writing, video and images worked well together. This is the first time I've seen the "BBC Magazine", and the experience is great.

on mobile (android), it was absolutely awful, every few scrolls it took over my screen and started automatically playing a video. if i wanted to watch the video in your article, i would press play, don't force it upon me

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#24

Post by mikeyouse »

ekianjo wrote: post #15
adventured wrote: post #2

Every time I see discussion about the nine dash line, I can't help but wonder how it can seem sane to anybody that China should have the water rights to an area ~600 km south of what is blatantly Vietnam's coastal waters (and the southern tip of their land) and just barely north of Malaysia's physical territory. I know the correct answer is: China doesn't care, and isn't concerned with reason when it comes to the nin…

> there is only who has the military power to dictate terms. Yeah, just like the American invasion of Iraq in 2004. Just because they could, despite it being unlawful at all international levels. But hey, Russia also does it, so there's not really any good example out there of a country that does not seize opportunities.

> Yeah, just like the American invasion of Iraq in 2004.

The US war in Iraq started in March, 2003.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#25

Post by veidr »

sdrothrock wrote: post #21
veidr wrote: post #20

I've watched with fascination as the Japanese Senkaku islands slowly and gradually came to be labeled 'disputed' in the western media, after China's recent claims. It seems like China has figured out a way to hack the media (the free media outside of China, I mean -- the government there obviously has root on Chinese TV and newspapers). Japanese ownership of this territory is basically as settled under international…

> because none of the countries whose territories China is going after -- not even Japan -- would do well in a straight up military conflict. I'm curious about why you don't think Japan would do well in a straight-up military conflict.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons.

One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gains.

Japan is a high-functioning democracy, and has been one of the most peaceful advanced economies of the world since losing the war. Before that, yeah, they were a definite bad actor on the world stage. But they haven't committed any military aggression toward any country in more than 65 years.

It is my personal opinion that there is almost no way that the people of Japan (where I live, though I am American) would support a war against China. Even if China just up and landed an occupying force on Japan's Senkaku islands.

In a democracy, that public support really matters. In a totalitarian regime, not so much.

I don't personally know that much about the military stuff -- how much would Japan's superior equipment matter in an actual conflict -- so I'd be interested to hear more knowledgeable people chime in. But in Japan, a war with China would be politically untenable unless China like, invaded Tokyo, or something. Which is highly unlikely.

As with the Philippines, I think the USA is the main deterrent to Chinese aggression. And these days it's a pretty shaky deterrent.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#26

Post by sdrothrock »

veidr wrote: post #25
sdrothrock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because none of the countries whose territories China is going after -- not even Japan -- would do well in a straight up military conflict. I'm curious about why you don't think Japan would do well in a straight-up military conflict.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons. One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gain…

> But they haven't committed any military aggression toward any country in more than 65 years.

Well, yeah. It's in their constitution.

> It is my personal opinion that there is almost no way that the people of Japan (where I live, though I am American) would support a war against China. Even if China just up and landed an occupying force on Japan's Senkaku islands.

Perhaps not over the Senkaku Islands, but I think that if China were aggressive toward one of the four main islands (or Okinawa), the Japanese people would definitely support war -- even if not in actual name. I was really surprised at the general sentiment toward the proposed amendment in that it was a lot more supportive than I personally would have expected from a heiwa-boke Japan.

Especially against China though, there's already a lot of dark, anti-China sentiment (especially with the recent chicken fiasco) that I feel like could be stirred up into support for a non-War armed conflict/proportional response... though I don't know how the people would act after seeing the results.

Edit: In addition, I feel like war-weary Americans would be similarly ambivalent about entering war against China if China tried to annex, say, Wake Island.

> As with the Philippines, I think the USA is the main deterrent to Chinese aggression.

This is for me personally the number one reason I don't think that China would be willing to escalate against Japan, actually. American bases in Japan can not only provide support, but attacks on them would draw America into the conflict necessarily.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#28

Post by anigbrowl »

melling wrote: post #13
anigbrowl wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote a Chinese official from a few years ago 'Vietnam is a small country and China is a big country and that is just a fact.'

So, what you are saying is that every time we buy something that's "Made in China", we are fueling the next major military power, which in turn will lead to a major conflict in the area?

I meant it more as a summary of China's strategic philosophy, which seems to be that the weak must inevitably give way to the strong. I don't know about a major military conflict, but China certainly seems to to be adopting a more...experimental posture.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#29

Post by Dolimiter »

When did this type of website design become acceptable?

I'm starting to see it more and more.

It reminds me of when "Multimedia CD-ROMs" first appeared circa mid-1990s, where flashy interfaces were ranked much higher than useability.

Please stop it. Give me a webpage with text, and images that I can enlarge when clicked. Thank you.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#30

Post by sixQuarks »

I don't like where this is all going. I've seen too often how seemingly trivial things can lead to all-out wars.

Thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan, the US has spent a lot of treasure. The population doesn't have the desire for more war. Now Russia and China are seeing how far they can push. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel like we're seeing the beginnings of things that lead to a major war between Russia & China on one side, and the US on the other.

The Fermi paradox is a reminder that we are living in very dangerous times right now.

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