Live data from Hacker News

How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

washingtonpost.com

21–30 of 51 posts

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#21

As someone that's lived in STL for the past 3-4 months, I cannot believe how many different police cars there are on my 20 minute commute every single day. On one road (St. Charles Rock Road actually) I drive to work on, I pass at least 3 different jurisdictions that generally has at least 2 cops on it every day. After that road, I get onto the highway and about a few miles down, St.Ann Police Department sets up a sp…

I live in St. Louis and see cars blow by me everyday going 20+ MPH over the speed limit and weaving in and out of traffic. I am personally glad the cops are there to act as a deterrent.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of those fines were for speeding That was Bolden’s second arrest. In 2009 she was arrested in the town of Bel-Ridge for a warrant on a speeding ticket. The Foristell warrant stemmed from a speeding ticket in 2011 “These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do — speeding Both were speeding tickets that he had neglected to pay. a warrant stemming from a 20-year-old speeding ticket. Speed seems to be…

I'm referring specifically to the act of quoting and responding to a single sentence. The representativeness of that sentence doesn't come into it. I'm not saying the act itself is inherently wrong, I'm saying that in my experience it's a reliable indicator that someone is no longer saying anything useful. Again, who are you talking to? These people aren't reading your comment. You wouldn't be telling them anything n…

Who is any of us talking to? There are many comments here on this very thread that are talking to no one (including the top voted one about Finland. We don't make the traffic laws, who cares what Finland does?).

The point of Internet forums is to have a discussion. It would appear we are having a discussion. ChuckMcM even linked me to an interesting-looking book. That's the point of Internet forums.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that it is not possible to drive (or do much of anything) without breaking the law. There are more laws than any single person has ever read and ignorance is not excuse.

That is a problem, yes, but I didn't see anything in the article citing obscure laws that no one knows about. The closest I saw was not subscribing to the only approved trash service.

It's a bit inverted, but a good chunk of the article centered on the common misconception that if you show up to court for a ticket and can't pay the fine, you'll go to jail. This is causing a lot of people to fail to appear in court, getting them in much more trouble than they were originally.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#24

As someone that's lived in STL for the past 3-4 months, I cannot believe how many different police cars there are on my 20 minute commute every single day. On one road (St. Charles Rock Road actually) I drive to work on, I pass at least 3 different jurisdictions that generally has at least 2 cops on it every day. After that road, I get onto the highway and about a few miles down, St.Ann Police Department sets up a sp…

I live in St. Louis and see cars blow by me everyday going 20+ MPH over the speed limit and weaving in and out of traffic. I am personally glad the cops are there to act as a deterrent.

Doesn't that imply that the deterrent isn't working?

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but that literally has nothing to do with the article. People are also getting tickets for things like not having proof of insurance and expired registrations. Furthermore, the system is set up in such a way of encouraging the police to use predatory tactics to produce revenue. This includes giving tickets for things that most other departments consider not being worth enforcing by tickets. Boiling down the ar…

No, the point of the article is people going to jail over minor offenses that snowball into major jail time. And one minor offense they call out repeatedly is speeding. Speeding is the beginning of the record for numerous people cited throughout the article. It's a controllable factor which costs literally nothing, unlike registration and insurance. So why does speeding claim so many?

"... poor are being targeted by speeding tickets at an even higher rate than average because police expect to get more ticket possibilities"

Can someone explain this? Are the poor really being targeted? Why are there more ticket possibilities? (Because you could get someone for expired registration, too?)

Is this a correlation ≠ causation thing? (I.e., police are more likely to pull over a speeder with multiple violations? That doesn't mean you're targeting the poor.)

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in St. Louis and see cars blow by me everyday going 20+ MPH over the speed limit and weaving in and out of traffic. I am personally glad the cops are there to act as a deterrent.

Doesn't that imply that the deterrent isn't working?

My experience is anecdotal at best, but it does seem that speeding is less common on roads where there are frequent speed traps.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#27
> Quinn’s client, for example, was the victim in a domestic abuse incident. But when the police arrived, they checked her occupancy permit, which only allowed for one person to reside at the apartment. The officers then cited the woman and her boyfriend $74 each for violating the permit. When Quinn protested that the law makes no effort to distinguish visitors from unlawful residents, the municipal prosecutor stated that “nothing good happens after 10pm” when single men and women are alone together — a sentiment later echoed by the judge.

In a different case, a Tennessee judge ruled that a child had to be renamed by its parents because

(1) "Messiah" is a title, not a name,

(2) that title is held by only one person,

and (3) that person is Jesus Christ.

Obviously, that ruling was grossly unconstitutional. But local courts often have only a hazy, at best, grasp of the law. I suspect it wouldn't be hard to have the principle that a single woman is prohibited by law from entertaining male visitors after 10 pm overturned in very strong terms... if anyone who could work within the court system were ever affected by this.

It would be nice if our legal system didn't deteriorate so badly at the bottom tiers. My guess is that the staffing levels necessary to provide our current levels of "oversight" preclude the obvious approach of only hiring people who can be expected to know what they're doing.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point of the article is people going to jail over minor offenses that snowball into major jail time. And one minor offense they call out repeatedly is speeding. Speeding is the beginning of the record for numerous people cited throughout the article. It's a controllable factor which costs literally nothing, unlike registration and insurance. So why does speeding claim so many?

"... poor are being targeted by speeding tickets at an even higher rate than average because police expect to get more ticket possibilities" Can someone explain this? Are the poor really being targeted? Why are there more ticket possibilities? (Because you could get someone for expired registration, too?) Is this a correlation ≠ causation thing? (I.e., police are more likely to pull over a speeder with multiple viola…

Older, more beatup cars tend to have higher "value" for the police officer. Someone driving a brand new Audi isn't going to have the same potential ticketing "value" as a 20 year old rusty car with a beat up bumper, as an example.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#29

>And when I’m late, I speed. How the poor are treated in our country is a crime, yes, but if you can't afford a speeding ticket, you can avoid getting a speeding ticket by not speeding. Going faster than the speed limit doesn't really get you there appreciably faster, but it does increase your chances of being in an accident substantially and greatly increases your chances of getting a speeding ticket. Stealing food…

From the article, the primary risk factor for being pulled over isn't speeding, it is simply choosing to drive. People are traffic stopped based on an expected stream of revenue.

Better to violation mine a person driving an old beater full of kids than a salesperson in a late model on their way to a sales call. The poor person is more likely to rack up insurance, license, and registration violations. And they are more likely to show up in court without an attorney to negotiate fines down.

As mentioned in the article, a poor person driving slow must mean they have something to hide. Understandable though it is, the mistake is to imagine this is anything other than a retail business. The police officers are writing violations in order to fund their paychecks. The judges and prosecutors are imposing fines for the same reason.

Flipping the light from yellow to red when cars are in the middle of an intersection isn't law enforcement.

Re: How St. Louis County, Missouri Profits from Poverty

#30
As a resident of North County this rings very true. I had a crack in my window. Several hundred to repair that I did not have. Worked part time minimum wage while in college. Need my car to get to work and school. Registration renewal came up. I could not get it renewed because I had a cracked window. Over the next few months going to work to make money to fix my window so I can renew my plates, I get five tickets from three jurisdictions. Then proceed to get a warrant because I lost track off all my ticket court dates and missed one. Get arrested, and finally have to beg my parents for the couple thousand I needed to get out of jail, pay off my warrant, pay my court costs, pay my tickets, fix my window and get my registration up to date. I am white and luckily have middle class parents to fall back on.
Post reply on HN