The Kindle problem • Hacker News Board

Re: The Kindle problem

#21

Post by potatolicious » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:01 PM UTC

futuremint wrote: post #3

I don't think the opening premise is entirely accurate. Isn't one reason for the iPhone's popularity (and most of Apple's devices/computers) that they provide both a great experience and they're convenient (iTunes/App store, reliability, "it just works" etc.)? Later the author states that he believes price to be a factor of convenience (which I would agree with), but that needs to be stated in the intro because I was…

Yeah, I'm going to call shenanigans on this article, and to be blunt, the author is talking out of his ass.

The very first sentence is the problem:

"Life, it turns out, is a series of tradeoffs between great experience and high convenience."

No, it isn't. By pretending this is a hard and fast rule to all things in life, the author has taken the mistaken position that no product can ever be a great experience and be convenient at the same time. We know from experience - the iPod/iTMS, the Wii, etc, that this is just clearly false.

The author then further fails to use even the most rudimentary logic:

"the entire e-reader market consisted of just 1 million units in all of 2008, and Amazon nabbed only a slice of it. By contrast, Microsoft sold about 1 million Zune music players..."

Using this flawless logic, we can also surmise that the iPhone is a terrible failure - just think about how many non-smartphones Nokia sold last year! The iPhone only sold a fraction of those last year! Not all markets are built the same. There's no reason to believe that the Kindle wasn't a huge success in its market. The problem with the Zune is that it failed to capture even a tiny portion of its* target market - this comparison is completely invalid.

Re: The Kindle problem

#22

Post by unalone » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:01 PM UTC

ironkeith wrote: post #19

unalone wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other methods of judgment, though. Sometimes the judgment is of the product itself. Nobody who's seen me with a Kindle has gone away thinking anything other than "This is somebody who reads hardcore." They don't get an idea of what I read, same as they don't get an idea of what's on my iPod, but the existence of the product says something in and of itself. Perhaps being judgmental about books is on the way…

I have a Kindle and one of my favourite things is that people can't see what I'm reading. I can sit in an airport lobby and read programming books, sci-fi, Harry Potter, or Michael Ondaatje and no one can tell. Feels good man.

Oh, definitely. I read British kid's fantasy in the middle of big literature discussions, and Shakespeare on the way to drunken concerts. It beat when I was reading Infinite Jest last year and getting weird looks from everybody.

Re: The Kindle problem

#23

Post by akmiller » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:03 PM UTC

Why is the author comparing the portable music player market with the e-reader market. In no way are they similar so you can't just throw out that Microsoft sold a million Zune's and the Kindle didn't even come close and use that as evidence of failure. The e-book reader market is vastly smaller than the music player market (which may in itself be somewhat unfortunate).

I actually think the price of the Kindle is very reasonable, when you figure in that you don't have to pay a monthly fee for the cellular service. That was a conscious decision made up front to not subsidize the device with a monthly payment plan.

There have been many reports to indicate that the Kindle is doing just fine including one recently that the NY Times Best Seller list is going to include Kindle sales because of the large number of purchases.

Re: The Kindle problem

#24

Post by futuremint » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:04 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #21

futuremint wrote: post #3

I don't think the opening premise is entirely accurate. Isn't one reason for the iPhone's popularity (and most of Apple's devices/computers) that they provide both a great experience and they're convenient (iTunes/App store, reliability, "it just works" etc.)? Later the author states that he believes price to be a factor of convenience (which I would agree with), but that needs to be stated in the intro because I was…

Yeah, I'm going to call shenanigans on this article, and to be blunt, the author is talking out of his ass. The very first sentence is the problem: "Life, it turns out, is a series of tradeoffs between great experience and high convenience." No, it isn't. By pretending this is a hard and fast rule to all things in life, the author has taken the mistaken position that no product can ever be a great experience and be c…

Ah yes, the Wii is another example. I also have one of those :). Just recently we also purchased a Keurig coffee maker (with the little cups, give you coffee in about 3 blinks of an eye). Also a great experience thats wonderfully convenient.

Re: The Kindle problem

#25

Post by warfangle » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:06 PM UTC

futuremint wrote: post #3

I don't think the opening premise is entirely accurate. Isn't one reason for the iPhone's popularity (and most of Apple's devices/computers) that they provide both a great experience and they're convenient (iTunes/App store, reliability, "it just works" etc.)? Later the author states that he believes price to be a factor of convenience (which I would agree with), but that needs to be stated in the intro because I was…

The difference is the type of product it is. The iPhone wasn't just another phone - it was the first to include an app store to encourage a developer ecosystem, among other things. The iPhone wasn't a reimagination of the phone, or a replacement for it - it was a phone with a bunch of other cool stuff.

The Kindle is just a book reader. It can show you any book you want, but it's expensive and doesn't do much more than allow you to buy and read books. I guess it can read book to you, too. But that's about it. It doesn't let you browse the web (now /that/ would be pretty awesome). It doesn't let you play games. There's no developer ecosystem that I know of for it. It's a one-function thing that's very expensive.

Compare:

20 hardcover books, $20 each: $400. Kindle 2 and 4 books: $400.

It only becomes cost-effective once you've spent $720 on your kindle book reading system: your Kindle, and 36 books @ $9.99 each.

Re: The Kindle problem

#26

Post by warfangle » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:09 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #5

akmad wrote: post #2

I would LOVE to get a Kindle. I enjoy the user experience and the convenience of having all your books on a single small device would be amazing. That said, I am never going to pay even $100 for a device that locks me into buying books that I cannot loan to a friend or pass on to my kids. Not to mention that roughly 75% of the books I read I'll never read again. This usage pattern perfectly matches the free (excludin…

If you have multiple device, (in the same account), and when you buy a book, all those devices will receive it. So you are your kids can read them at the same time. Get a family account and login with the kindles on that, so your kids will enjoy your books too. As for more advanced features, it is still a very early market, and features are coming one by one. Give it time.

Some books are limited to how many devices you can put them on.

And there's no way to tell before you buy the book.

Re: The Kindle problem

#27

Post by biohacker42 » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:17 PM UTC

He told me sales of the Kindle were sizzling. But that’s not quite the case if you really look at numbers. While Amazon did sell out of Kindles in 2008, it hadn’t actually made that many of them.

This exactly what I suspected, and got into a bit of pointless internet arguing right here on HN over it, good times.

Re: The Kindle problem

#28

Post by ryane » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:26 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #6

To beat the book, to be better than the book, Amazon... This is a classic case of a solution looking for a problem. I imagine that a Kindle would be a great companion on a plane, a train, or in a backpack, but other than that... I can't imagine using one of these things at work or at home, where I do 90% of my reading. I love books. I have shevles full of them in my home and office. I love the feel and smell and the…

"I can't imagine..." but you won't really know until you try. I thought the same way you did, but, since I bought the kindle a year ago in preparation for some long term travel, my perspective has changed completely and I don't think I've bought a physical book since. Not saying that you will necessarily have the same experience but, for me personally, it certainly has achieved the goal of "being better than the book".

Re: The Kindle problem

#29

Post by fnid » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:38 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #4

"For example, the Kindle lets readers down with respect to one subtle but powerful element of the traditional book’s appeal: its role as an identity marker. Pulling out a particular book on an airline flight or in a doctor’s office can mean staking a claim to being a particular kind of person." -- That is easily resovalbe. Having a second smaller outside screen (like flip phones do), showing what you are reading :P B…

if you are judging a person by what they are reading, then you are are bit superficial

I think it's countless times better to judge a person by which books they read than it is to judge them by the clothes they wear or how they style their hair or how big their muscles or boobs are.

Judging isn't good, but books are something close to the heart.

Re: The Kindle problem

#30

Post by Maro » Tue, Sep 15, 2009, 6:46 PM UTC

(I don't have a Kindle.)

One of the most convenient things about a book is that it is rugged. I can take it with me, read it anywhere, throw it down, and it doesn't break. And even if it does "break", I'm only loosing a few dollars on it (by the time it comes apart, it's old).

So, if I'd be on the Kindle design team, I'd make it ridiculously rugged. You should be able to handle it like a book. Also, the outside appearance should be such that people automatically are handling it like one (eg. throwing it around) instead of doing everything to keep it nice and scratch-free (like an iPhone or Macbook). I'd put it in textile or hardpaper book-like covers that you can grab and tear and then replace. Also, it must not get hot (or even warm).