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Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

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Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#21

Post by pizza »

otakucode wrote: post #5

Linda Sandvik sounds like a fundamentally good person, and the other members of the Code Club board bad ones. Good on her. They will be harmed by her absence, and they deserve that. The belief that sponsorship can buy silence is disgusting and immoral. Sponsorship should convey absolutely nothing aside from receiving credit for assisting with the sponsored organizations goals.

I think you're reaching a bit there. It sounds like this was a conflict with the board's practices more than anything, and this problem could have manifested itself in numerous ways other than sponsorship alignment..

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#23

Post by vidarh »

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

I'm conflicted. I respect someone for standing up for what they believe in (freedom to express their views) but this also seems like one of those "pick your battles" situations. Google like it or not are a key sponsor of Code Club. They do some good and some evil, but they're a key sponsor, and as the director you need to put the organisation ahead of your personal issues/complaints. The complaints might be entirely…

If someone asks for silence (and it is not clear that Google has; it could just as well be an overzealous board, so I'm not (yet) blaming Google), then I'd be inclined to grit my teeth and say I don't want their money.

Yes, it may be "for the good of the organisation" in the short term. But if you allow the organisation to be corrupted by bending to the will of corporate sponsors that are treating it as a means of buying goodwill, it is not clear the organization will deserve to survive in the long term.

I must say that if Google asked for this, then I don't think they are a suitable sponsor. It sends all the wrong signals to me for an educational charity to sell the silence of it's board members.

In any case, this has already damaged my opinion of the Code Club board, regardless whether they made this decision unilaterally or under pressure. I hope it does not damage my opinion of Google too.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#24

Post by petea »

What is actually bad about Google's "corporate mass surveillance"?

It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any.

Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services.

Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much better than others. Do you get the label "corporate mass surveillance", when the company becomes so good learning about its users?

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#25

Post by paulhauggis »

otakucode wrote: post #7
facepalm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a sponsor finance a project that tells people the sponsor is evil? I don't really see the problem here. Two parties disagree, so they go separate ways. End of story.

>Why should a sponsor finance a project that tells people the sponsor is evil? Because they are sponsoring the project in order to accomplish the goals the project works toward - not because they are buying friends. If they want to teach kids to code, sponsoring Code Club gives them that. If they insist on also getting people to censor themselves and lie, then they're just being spoiled children.

I disagree.

Spoiled children say things without thinking (or accepting the consequences), which sounds like the director, not Google.

"Because they are sponsoring the project in order to accomplish the goals the project works toward - not because they are buying friends."

Yes, but the director is running that project and represents the company. I'm still curious as to why they even accepted the money in the first place if they think Google is so "evil".

"If they insist on also getting people to censor themselves and lie, then they're just being spoiled children."

Private companies aren't the government. If you continue to make a company look bad, they will not want to do business with you (and have no obligation to do so). It's just common sense.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#26

Post by smikhanov »

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #11
facepalm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should a sponsor finance a project that tells people the sponsor is evil? I don't really see the problem here. Two parties disagree, so they go separate ways. End of story.

When imbalances of power exist, it's almost never as simple as "two parties disagree, so they go separate ways." We don't have complete information, and the article is clearly a one-sided representation of the situation. That said, based on her account, it seems one of these things is true: 1. Code Club's board acted independently of any action by Google in an attempt to stop some perceived conflict before it started…

They have neither the obligation nor the right to demand anybody in the organization, Linda or whomever, to behave in any manner when not "on the clock."

Of course they do. A company (that board ultimately represents) is not a human being and it can't have opinions on certain things, but it can has something resembling ethos, enforced by the employees. Anyone joining a company does so voluntarily, and can expect consequences when they do something that is not aligned with that ethos.

Mozilla, for example, ousted Eich because of him doing something anti-LGBT "off the clock". As a company, Mozilla has an "ethos" that is all about diversity and their board is absolutely free to act accordingly.

Also wanted to add that there's also no "imbalance of power" here (i.e. no need to paint it all black). Certain highly valuable CEOs stay in their positions even when they say and do nasty things, so a situation when Linda would be more valuable to Code Club than Google sponsorship is entirely possible.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#27

Post by ssmoot »

petea wrote: post #24

What is actually bad about Google's "corporate mass surveillance"? It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any. Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services. Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much b…

Informed Consent.

When I started using Google services many years ago, it definitely didn't occur to me they could basically track you across half the web. And you don't really get much of a choice in the matter. You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton.

But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing.

And to be honest, I'm not much better off. So hard to consent to something if I'm not even sure what all they're gathering, and what they're doing with it.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#28

Post by tptacek »

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive.

There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board. But that's not what happened here.

Silencing project members also doesn't help Google. Instead, it contributes to a perception that any support Google has comes from the barrel of a financial gun.

If Sandvik was given an ultimatum to stop criticizing Google to avoid annoying a sponsor, that was a terrible mistake on the part of the project. They should do what they can to correct it.

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#29

Post by kghose »

tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

I think I agree with you. Your professional platform is not the same as your personal platform.

The courses of action should have been

1. Resign from company and then air personal views (as explicitly personal)

2. Air personal views separately but say explicitly these are personal views.

3. Discuss matter in the board and come up with company approved policy statement - we will no longer do business with Google etc. because ...

Re: Linda Sandvik Resigns As Director Of Code Club

#30

Post by smikhanov »

tptacek wrote: post #28

I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive. There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board.…

I've left a similar comment below, but out of interest: in light of what you just said, what do you think about Mozilla-Eich debate?
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