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BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

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Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#21

Post by igravious »

wallflower wrote: post #19

What I find interesting about yoga practices in America is that there is so much emphasis/focus on just the 1st level (Physical). Physical - Annamaya kosha Energy - Pranamaya kosha Mental - Manamaya kosha Wisdom - Vijnanamaya kosha Bliss - Anandamaya kosha Self - Atman Even the grueling 200-hr Yoga training which some of my friends have endured is about doing all the poses (which can be quite difficult, especially if…

Perhaps because the "model" we have in the West of ourselves is more-or-less a dualistic model: mind/body. I guess that people in the West consider yoga involving poses to target the body and practices like meditation to target the mind. That would then cover "everything" as far as we'd see.

There is the notion embedded in Western culture that the seat of consciousness (which many equate with the self) is contained within the Mind somewhere. We have a mostly pop cultural understanding of the mind with a good dash of Freud-speak. I think that experimental psychology and neuroscience are increasingly important as sources of understanding for the mind.

In the West, also, I figure that wisdom is pursued through religion or the arts/literature/cinema/etc. or philosophy.

I think that most in the West see energy as part of the scientific domain of things. I realise that many don't but I'm going to discount this group as pre-scientific and/or not scientifically literate and/or superstitious.

I guess what you mean by Bliss is what the Buddhists mean by Elightenment? I can't think of a direct analog for this state in Western culture. If you could tell me more I'd answer this better.

Short answer. Western culture and science is resistant to the model you are putting forward. That's why. Be happy to debate any of this further.

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#22

Post by maccard »

geographomics wrote: post #9
dheer01 wrote: post #8

Every software engineer at some time in their working life will experience lower back pain. Before, you waste time/money going to your favourite medical practitioner, who will most likely advise you with a chemical cocktail - please visit your local yoga practitioner and ask him for a one minute session on Salamba Bhujangasana. This will 'cure' your backpain completely and irrevocably. If you havent yet crossed over,…

If the pain is persistent, medical practitioners would be more likely to recommend physiotherapy than an endless supply of painkillers.

I found I got an ample supply of both for a slipped disc. Tried Yoga, hurt more both short and long term.

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#23

Post by wallflower »

igravious wrote: post #21
wallflower wrote: post #19

What I find interesting about yoga practices in America is that there is so much emphasis/focus on just the 1st level (Physical). Physical - Annamaya kosha Energy - Pranamaya kosha Mental - Manamaya kosha Wisdom - Vijnanamaya kosha Bliss - Anandamaya kosha Self - Atman Even the grueling 200-hr Yoga training which some of my friends have endured is about doing all the poses (which can be quite difficult, especially if…

Perhaps because the "model" we have in the West of ourselves is more-or-less a dualistic model: mind/body. I guess that people in the West consider yoga involving poses to target the body and practices like meditation to target the mind. That would then cover "everything" as far as we'd see. There is the notion embedded in Western culture that the seat of consciousness (which many equate with the self) is contained w…

Re: Bliss

I think it is along the same levels of Enlightenment.

"Our egos very often keep us from being our best selves" -Karen Armstrong

I think materialism is the short-term fix to some problems that we all have. Nothing is black or white. We are all consumers, in some form. I think true happiness comes from producing and giving more, especially when there is no monetary compensation or stress tied to the giving or producing. E.g. a real hobby

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#24

Post by igravious »

wallflower wrote: post #23
igravious wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps because the "model" we have in the West of ourselves is more-or-less a dualistic model: mind/body. I guess that people in the West consider yoga involving poses to target the body and practices like meditation to target the mind. That would then cover "everything" as far as we'd see. There is the notion embedded in Western culture that the seat of consciousness (which many equate with the self) is contained w…

Re: Bliss I think it is along the same levels of Enlightenment. "Our egos very often keep us from being our best selves" -Karen Armstrong I think materialism is the short-term fix to some problems that we all have. Nothing is black or white. We are all consumers, in some form. I think true happiness comes from producing and giving more, especially when there is no monetary compensation or stress tied to the giving or…

Ah. In Western philosophy there is talk about attaining 'happiness' or even 'true happiness' but it does not surface much, I am open to correction here.

I totally dig Karen Armstrong, I have two of her books :)

I think Western culture is absorbing these Eastern ideas about not identifying with our thoughts and emotions, that you can acknowledge that 'you' (whatever that is) have thoughts and emotions but that they don't have to define you. I would be extremely interested in seeing if this way of thinking has been advocated in Western philosophy prior to now. Prayer in religion may come close?

An interesting advance on this I have seen recently is the social model of human interaction. By which I mean, we are not a duality: physical and psychological beings but a triad: physical, psychological, and social. To achieve 'happiness' or 'wellness' or 'enlightenment' or 'bliss', call it what you will (I know they are not strictly synonymous) that you'd have to work on all three: the body (exercise or yoga poses or ...), the mind (meditation or mindfullness or ...), society (? charity? other virtuous acts?)

Food for thought indeed :)

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#25

Post by dragonwriter »

igravious wrote: post #24
wallflower wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: Bliss I think it is along the same levels of Enlightenment. "Our egos very often keep us from being our best selves" -Karen Armstrong I think materialism is the short-term fix to some problems that we all have. Nothing is black or white. We are all consumers, in some form. I think true happiness comes from producing and giving more, especially when there is no monetary compensation or stress tied to the giving or…

Ah. In Western philosophy there is talk about attaining 'happiness' or even 'true happiness' but it does not surface much, I am open to correction here. I totally dig Karen Armstrong, I have two of her books :) I think Western culture is absorbing these Eastern ideas about not identifying with our thoughts and emotions, that you can acknowledge that 'you' (whatever that is) have thoughts and emotions but that they do…

> In Western philosophy there is talk about attaining 'happiness' or even 'true happiness' but it does not surface much, I am open to correction here.

It surfaces more in a religious context; perhaps another East-West difference that is relevant here is the separation between secular philosophy and religion.

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#26

Post by [deleted] »

wallflower wrote: post #19

What I find interesting about yoga practices in America is that there is so much emphasis/focus on just the 1st level (Physical). Physical - Annamaya kosha Energy - Pranamaya kosha Mental - Manamaya kosha Wisdom - Vijnanamaya kosha Bliss - Anandamaya kosha Self - Atman Even the grueling 200-hr Yoga training which some of my friends have endured is about doing all the poses (which can be quite difficult, especially if…

[deleted]

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#29

Post by peterwwillis »

andrewl wrote: post #15
dheer01 wrote: post #8

Every software engineer at some time in their working life will experience lower back pain. Before, you waste time/money going to your favourite medical practitioner, who will most likely advise you with a chemical cocktail - please visit your local yoga practitioner and ask him for a one minute session on Salamba Bhujangasana. This will 'cure' your backpain completely and irrevocably. If you havent yet crossed over,…

Some forms of yoga can be good for some people. And some of them can be quite bad, which isn't often acknowledged. There's a lot of dogma in the yoga community. See the New York Times article How Yoga Can Wreck Your Body [1] and the followup discussion The Healing Power of Yoga Controversy [2]. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wrec... [2] http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/the-hea…

Here's my $0.02 on the subject. Every modern western yoga teacher (if they've passed teacher training) will tell you several things when you're starting out:

  1. If it hurts, don't do it.
  2. Listen to your body.
  3. You can not 'win' yoga.
  4. If you have an injury, use a modified pose.
  5. It's your practice, do it your way, at your own pace.
  6. Rest if you feel like it.
  7. Don't do everything everyone else does.
  etc
I've injured myself once so far. Most other people I know who practice regularly have also hurt themselves doing asanas, usually improperly. But the same goes for anyone who does a challenging physical activity, which yoga can definitely be if you push yourself or aren't mindful of your body. At the end of the day, there is no perfect way to prevent injury as all our bodies are different.

So unless everyone did the senior-citizen-modified poses there's always going to be risk of injury. Assuming a person could just jump into a crazy backbend like Vrschikasana without injury would be crazy... I don't know who you think isn't acknowledging this as every yoga instructor has probably also hurt themselves at one point or another.

The people who advocate yoga as healing or beneficial are not incorrect. But they're also not explaining to you everything about yoga in one paragraph. People who read one or two sentences and stop learning are dooming themselves from ignorance.

Much like people who work out without a personal trainer, people who do yoga without an experienced teacher (not just practitioner) are going to be at a significant disadvantage. Perhaps the real issue is that most people don't acknowledge that yoga is complex and can't be minimized or simplified.

Re: BKS Iyengar, who helped bring yoga to the West, has died

#30

Post by JoeAltmaier »

peterwwillis wrote: post #29
andrewl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some forms of yoga can be good for some people. And some of them can be quite bad, which isn't often acknowledged. There's a lot of dogma in the yoga community. See the New York Times article How Yoga Can Wreck Your Body [1] and the followup discussion The Healing Power of Yoga Controversy [2]. [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wrec... [2] http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/10/the-hea…

Here's my $0.02 on the subject. Every modern western yoga teacher (if they've passed teacher training) will tell you several things when you're starting out: 1. If it hurts, don't do it. 2. Listen to your body. 3. You can not 'win' yoga. 4. If you have an injury, use a modified pose. 5. It's your practice, do it your way, at your own pace. 6. Rest if you feel like it. 7. Don't do everything everyone else does. etc I'…

Yeah but injury while skiing or wrestling makes some kind of sense. Injury while sitting on a mat - something is not right there. Something intrinsic to the activity, if "there's always going to be a risk of injury".
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