A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
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Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#22>Now we modify the thought experiment a bit. We still have the hundred cubicles but this time they are not painted blue or red. Instead they are numbered from 1 to 100. The numbers are painted on the outside. Then a fair coin is tossed (by God perhaps). If the coin falls heads, one person is created in each cubicle. If the coin falls tails, then persons are only created in cubicles 1 through 10. >You find yourself in…
> the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle at all is ten times higher in that case No. That you are in a cubicle is a given fact, so the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle is unconditionally 1.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle at all is ten times higher in that case No. That you are in a cubicle is a given fact, so the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle is unconditionally 1.
The reason why this is so subtle is that it's not a given that you're in a cubicle. It's more likely for you to be put in a cubicle the more people who are put into cubicles.
The way the problem is presented, it is a given that you're in a cubicle. If you wanted to be more explicit about it, you could say that God, before creating humanity, flipped a coin, and then created either 10 or 100 humans and placed them into cubicles. You wake up and have to estimate the probability of that coin flip.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#24In both doom soon and doom late, cubicles 1-10 are occupied. There's no aspect of doom late that would be made less likely as a result of cubicles 1-10 being occupied.
The reverse works well, though. Being in one of cubicles 11+ /does/ eliminate the possibility of doom soon. So only passing the cubicle threshold gives any meaningful information about which of the two scenarios are true.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#25>Now we modify the thought experiment a bit. We still have the hundred cubicles but this time they are not painted blue or red. Instead they are numbered from 1 to 100. The numbers are painted on the outside. Then a fair coin is tossed (by God perhaps). If the coin falls heads, one person is created in each cubicle. If the coin falls tails, then persons are only created in cubicles 1 through 10. >You find yourself in…
> the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle at all is ten times higher in that case No. That you are in a cubicle is a given fact, so the probability that you find yourself in a cubicle is unconditionally 1.
But it's not 1 that you would be in a cubicle at all. The paradox disappears if the problem was formulated like this: "God shuffles DNA and there is 0.0000000000001 chances tha it shuffles up you and he does that for every cuebicle". Or: "God create you first, then flips a coin and put you at random in one of the created cubicles".
Formulation of the problem should mention which one is it. If it doesn't we are back to guessing what God does (similarly to 2 envelope problem which comes down to guessing what the sponsor's preferences for amounts are). As there are infinitely many ways God could decide to create humans in cubicles you can't answer that without giving some guess (priori) for probability distribution over those choices.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#26Is this a restatement of the Fermi Paradox? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#27Is there a strong, formal version of the Doomsday argument not based on cubicles and such? The obvious flaw in that version is that it is based on finite possibilities: that is, finding oneself in this or that kind of universe out of so many possible ones. For starters, we have no idea of how likely our universe is; we know what numerator is 1, but what goes on the denominator? Is there even such a number? If so it i…
Actually, that's the many-worlds hypothesis of quantum theory. Parallel universes refers to something else.
> This proliferation of multiple futures from any moment would tend to provide a way for doomsdays to be circumvented.
Not exactly circumvented. In the many-worlds picture, all outcomes occur, including the one predicted by the Doomsday argument.
> If you are cloned into N futures in this moment, and you're killed in N-1 of them, then you don't know it ...
True but not compelling, because quantum theories don't require each of the many worlds to be occupied by a conscious observer. Were this not so, the universe couldn't have evolved to the point where consciousness was first possible.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#28http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec17.html
The whole course is also very good, and will probably be interesting to many HN users.
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#29Perhaps I'm ignorant of some deeper concept... but it seems that this argument is deeply flawed on the basis that they are presuming that finding yourself in cubicles 1-10 somehow indicates that cubicles 11+ are probably vacant. In both doom soon and doom late, cubicles 1-10 are occupied. There's no aspect of doom late that would be made less likely as a result of cubicles 1-10 being occupied. The reverse works well,…
This, by the way, has nothing to do with "Bayesian" vs. "Frequentism"... this is just the straight application of a simple and non-controversial thing call Bayes' Rule. Assuming you know the probabilities with the requisite precision you are perfectly justified in reasoning that way.
It's also worth reading the end of the article carefully too... for instance, "doom" may be a bit leading, since "doom" could include a full Singularity after which we are no longer "humans" but nobody is upset about that, or other such scenarios that are still in some sense "doom" for The Human Race (imagine those glorious calligraphy letters for that) but aren't necessarily doom in a bad way.
There's also just the casual observation that if society goes on for billions of years there are still simply some people who are born early. Sometimes people win the lottery, and we would not generally be too impressed if they reasoned backwards from there to the conclusion that winning the lottery was more likely than they would have initially thought. (That is not exactly a parallel, since a lottery is part of a much bigger net of information than the deliberately simplified version presented in the argument.) One of my objections would be that it is not clear that we can take a non-temporal line of logic as given in the beginning of the argument and directly apply it to a situation with time. And when I mean "not clear", I mean precisely that it is not clear to me, not that I'm saying it's impossible.
In general I've observed that I'm not impressed with our attempts to apply our local probability rules at cosmological scales. Is Occam's Razor really applicable at cosmological scales? It's hard to say what's "simplest" when we don't even have any reasonable priors (or translate that to whatever math framework you may like, like "have no information about"). The orders of magnitude involved even with merely the visible universe, which we have no reason to believe is even the whole of reality, IMHO can easily swamp the simple probability of error in the argument too easily. (That is to say... there's an old observation in computer science that running a "probabilistic" algorithm with a probability of failure lower than the probability of hardware failure is indistinguishable from running a deterministic algorithm. It is not clear to me that we can overcome our probability of having something wrong in our argument.)
Re: A Primer on the Doomsday Argument
#30Perhaps I'm ignorant of some deeper concept... but it seems that this argument is deeply flawed on the basis that they are presuming that finding yourself in cubicles 1-10 somehow indicates that cubicles 11+ are probably vacant. In both doom soon and doom late, cubicles 1-10 are occupied. There's no aspect of doom late that would be made less likely as a result of cubicles 1-10 being occupied. The reverse works well,…
They key point is that, if Doom Late occurred, then the probability of ending up in cubicle 1-10 is only 10%. So if the only observation that you have is that your cubicle is numbered 1-10, which is more likely: Doom Soon (50% absolute probability), or Doom Late (50% absolute) and you happened to end up in 1-10 (10% of the 50%)?
Therefore, the conditional probability of Doom Soon is higher than 50% based on the observation of self <= 10.