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Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

techcrunch.com

21–26 of 26 posts

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#21

>as a class, we are downtrodden, disrespected, and disenfranchised? Oh, please. If any of you ever want to know what this actually feels like, take a job in retail, customer service, food prep, or low-level hospitality. There are many more jobs out of the limelight that are underpaid and under-respected (in the USA, which is my perspective) and take just as much of a toll on you as building a ridiculous system to ple…

> Should engineers get more respect? That's a valid and fair question, and companies will pay more respect ...

"You could do worse" is a rough straw-man in these scenarios.

I agree to that statement, but the cause of the outcry is rather interesting to observe, if only from an "anthropology of small tribes/startups" angle.

In particular that Engineers seem to be bound by "passion" and that this costs them from being economically rational.

When you equate economics to respect, then you get the message within the tech-crunch article.

The rationals beat the irrational players and that's pretty much the way the game is setup.

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#22
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the software engineering PE? Been programming professionally 18 years, never heard of it.

In this context, PE is the professional engineering exam. You take it in a specialty area, and software engineering was added last year. It's one of the last steps for licensure as a professional engineer. Some states, like Texas, are extremely picky about who calls themselves an engineer, irrespective of industrial exemption (which the vast majority of people fall under). PE licensure in other engineering areas (lik…

Huh. Now that's fascinating.

So, if my FE is still valid, I could look into the PE for software? I'm intrigued.

EDIT:

Link for Texans: http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/software.html

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#23
post #14

>Whereas in fact any engineer worth her salt will tell you that she makes business decisions daily–albeit on the micro not macro level–because she has to in order to get the job done. Exactly how long should this database field be? And of what datatype? How and where should it be validated? How do we handle all of the edge cases? These are in fact business decisions, and we make them, I would suggest that software pr…

(Disclaimer: didn't read the article, just a response to the comment above.)

I agree that db field definitions are not "business decisions", but "edge cases" can be.

I think the trick here, as a programmer, is to realise when the different ways to handle edge cases of a design you've been asked to implement do become in effect business decisions, and then not make these decisions but instead push back and insist the decisions are made by the business whose logic you are implementing.

This can be hard work a) to make the product owners understand the significance and b) to get them to commit to a decision, when often at heart they'd rather you just "make it go away."

But it's much better in the end to be confident that corner cases and unforeseen consequences of a design have been ok'd with the decision makers whose actual job it is to make these decisions.

Rarely, but sometimes, you can open up or bring into view aspects of a product design or business process that no-one suspected even existed like this, as a side benefit.

This is from the point of view where there's a "separation of powers" between tech and product teams, of course. If you work in an environment where that isn't the case then you work with whatever process you have to make these decisions.

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#24
> [As a managerial candidate] the CEO talked to Bill as an equal, not as a paternalistic, bullshitting, “this is good for your career” authority figure. There was a tone of equality that a software engineer would never get from the CEO of a 100-person tech company.

As I've gotten older I've learned people often interact with me the way I expect them to. If I expect them to be patronizing while I am submissive, I will be shy and withdrawn and the person will try to move on from the conversation, often in a way I will find patronizing (especially because I will compare their responses not to what I said, but to what I wanted to say).

Similarly if I interact with someone as an equal they will respond in kind.

Managers are more likely to have figured this out too (if they are any good), while engineers are often quite poor at this.

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#25

>as a class, we are downtrodden, disrespected, and disenfranchised? Oh, please. If any of you ever want to know what this actually feels like, take a job in retail, customer service, food prep, or low-level hospitality. There are many more jobs out of the limelight that are underpaid and under-respected (in the USA, which is my perspective) and take just as much of a toll on you as building a ridiculous system to ple…

did you read the post or just the title? nobody is arguing that engineers are the least respected people in the world.

Re: Do Software Engineers Get Enough Respect?

#26

i followed the link to the original article ..then stopped reading it when i got to: "...changing Staff Software Engineer to Director didn’t feel dishonest, " looks like it was a game of manipulation...

There's job fraud and social status inflation. Job fraud is claiming you can do something that you're objectively unqualified to do, usually by counterfeiting formal certifications. For example, if you claim to be a doctor but never went to medical school, you're guilty of job fraud and should go to jail. Social status inflation is something that everyone does, and that everything has been doing for hundreds of thous…

okaaaay. sorry to me, staff software engineer != director.
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