Live data from Hacker News

Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

medium.com

21–30 of 83 posts

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#21
post #6

I love this. But, am saddened that the troll hasn't lost. The troll is free to move on to the next mark, which likely won't have a free legal team behind them. I wonder if invalidating patents, that trolls commonly use, a good use of a law student's time?

Honestly, 911 Notify is far from the worst troll. Most of their targets are deep-pocket public companies that have plenty of cash to hire big brand law firms.

I think it would be a great use of student time to identify the most egregious patents / trolls and try to invalidate their patents.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#23
post #8

This article suggests that this is a win-win situation for the startups and law students, but, it's a pretty one-sided deal here. This doesn't work out at all in the long term without unfair exploitation of the unpaid labor of the students. While helping out gives the students experience, it's not reasonable to consider this any sort of real option beyond an occasional situation in which a startup can solicit a law-s…

True. This doesn't solve the patent troll problem. We could replicate the clinic at a few different schools, and maybe win 5 or 10 cases per year out of the hundreds that get filed. Not a solution, but maybe better than nothing?

Unpaid labor - students get school credit, and its way more fun that sitting through lectures.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#24
post #5

>the troll simply dropped its case against CarShield Yet the startup and the judicial system already lost time on this. There should be a fee for withdrawing cases like this.

How come there isn't yet??? Out of all the stuff that makes my blood boil the most... this is it. So basically the troll gets off for free and just does it again? What in the actual fuck.......

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "unfair exploitation". The students willingly sign on to get meaningful experience working on real cases. It gives them a chance to do real work and see more closely how actual law work is done. From the sounds of the article, there is one small clinic in Brooklyn that makes this a "real option" for companies. It's not like every company that faces patent trolls can rely on it, but I don't think it would be…

In a small number of cases it can work - but, you can't expect students to take on legal cases for you for free-99 whenever you like. This is no different than big companies hiring unpaid interns. Sure it can kinda work in a handful of cases, but it's harmful to exploit people to perform unpaid labor. I can recall a great many HN articles complaining about companies asking coders to work unpaid in a variety of situat…

Pay them in equity?

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#26
post #3

"The Supreme Court issued 6 patent helpful patent decisions while our case was pending. In particular, Alice v. CLS Bank invalidated patents on taking mundane tasks and doing them on a computer. The patent in our case was basically for sending notification calls from a computer. Probably invalid under Alice. A second Supreme Court case, Octane v. Icon encouraged judges to impose “fee shifting” penalties in appropriat…

I note that it was dismissed without prejudice (i.e. the troll can refile). This is somewhat disappointing, but I believe they only get to withdraw a lawsuit voluntarily once and I don't really expect them to come back and sue this particular defendant again (i.e. they'll probably go after softer targets).

One thing I wonder is if patent defendants in a situation like this might win from publishing all of their legal research on the patent online? It seems like this might help future defendants if there was anything interesting and I believe a tactic like that was used with some success against Microsoft in some of the state antitrust lawsuits long ago.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#28
post #5

>the troll simply dropped its case against CarShield Yet the startup and the judicial system already lost time on this. There should be a fee for withdrawing cases like this.

Careful: It's hard to craft remedies against patent trolls that don't also penalize poor inventors whose work was really and truly ripped off by a much richer entity. Even simple rules like "loser pays" can make the potential downside of filing a valid suit so intimidating that large players get a complete pass.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#29

It was dismissed without prejudice. This means nothing. If a patent troll wanted to do the same thing & file for the same lawsuit, they could easily do so. This isn't a "win" for the sutdents as much as it's "oh, let's just drop it." I'm glad they didn't have to the pay the troll, but I also hate when the troll doesn't get what it deserves, either: losing.

Is there a legal procedure that would have made it possible for the defense team to say to the judge "It should not be possible to dismiss this unless it is with prejudice"?

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "unfair exploitation". The students willingly sign on to get meaningful experience working on real cases. It gives them a chance to do real work and see more closely how actual law work is done. From the sounds of the article, there is one small clinic in Brooklyn that makes this a "real option" for companies. It's not like every company that faces patent trolls can rely on it, but I don't think it would be…

In a small number of cases it can work - but, you can't expect students to take on legal cases for you for free-99 whenever you like. This is no different than big companies hiring unpaid interns. Sure it can kinda work in a handful of cases, but it's harmful to exploit people to perform unpaid labor. I can recall a great many HN articles complaining about companies asking coders to work unpaid in a variety of situat…

> This is no different than big companies hiring unpaid interns. Sure it can kinda work in a handful of cases, but it's harmful to exploit people to perform unpaid labor.

There was a set of rules that came from a court ruling regarding unpaid internships[0]. I would like to go over the points here. These rules dictate whether an intern can go unpaid or not:

> 1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;

Your intern can't be a coffee jockey for you. They have to actually learn things from the job. In this case, I believe this is more than can be gained from an educational environment. This involved many more intricate details, and probably a bunch of analysis of the patents at hand. I imagine they were trying to pick apart this patent.

> 2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;

This experience was beneficial for both parties.

> 3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;

Unless the startup had a legal team that they didn't use, I feel this is self evident.

> 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;

While the startup did obtain an advantage (having a legal team), if the clinic team had failed, there is a very good chance they would have been greatly impeded.

> 5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship;

I highly doubt that any of the team got immediately hired, or were promised a job at the end of the internship.

> 6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

They had come to an agreement that the students would be working for the clinic pro bono.

I feel that all of these points were met, and in this case there was no exploitation of unpaid labor. Both sides benefited greatly from this.

> But, the reality of the situation is there are massively degenerate patent laws at work here and the solution isn't for startups to expect a contingent of students to work there buts off gratis for them.

You're right. But I don't see any other solutions right now. There isn't any drastic reform bill being pushed through Congress. There aren't any big companies standing up to these patent trolls, in fact most have given in. There was a patent troll going around suing companies for shopping cart technologies. Amazon and several others gave in, but Newegg finally stood up and denied them a settlment. Newegg went on to win the court case. They have won several others as well. Given the recent rulings of passing court fees on to patent trolls, I imagine they are getting less complaints in the long run than others that have given in.

[0]: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/the-cour...

Post reply on HN