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Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

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Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#21

Post by mateuszf »

anigbrowl wrote: post #11
justizin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How long until central databases are collecting datapoints on our whereabouts at all times, not only from mobile devices, but just the image of our faces?" this is a fine question - the DHS has proposed a project with the City of Oakland to prototype just such a thing, described as a combination of NSA surveillance and stop & frisk, which they call the Domain Awareness Center. Originally targeted at the port post 9/…

You're a few months out of date. Plans for this have been scaled back to the portage areas: http://www.eastbayexpress.com/SevenDays/archives/2014/03/05/... While I share your dislike of the program, it's important to look at the overall scope rather just the government one. After all, you could build a pretty good automatic photo identification system on top of Facebook.

Yeah, but Facebook photos are shared explicitly by users with their agreement to Facebook use terms.

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#22

Post by Ntrails »

infinotize wrote: post #8

The article indicates many states are beginning to supply federal agencies with biometric data including driver's license photographs. It also states a local police force (the NYPD) was a customer of a facial recognition system. How long until central databases are collecting datapoints on our whereabouts at all times, not only from mobile devices, but just the image of our faces? I don't think the founders [US-centr…

Slightly off topic, but I am curious and don't understand, why do you care what the founders did or did not envision? You live in a democracy, where you elect people to govern the country in a way that suits the majority of the population.

The way I see it, these issues aren't about what someone 250(?) years ago wanted, but what the people who are alive today want. If their views outweigh those of the electorate today, is it even still a democracy?

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#24

Post by hooliganned »

Ntrails wrote: post #22
infinotize wrote: post #8

The article indicates many states are beginning to supply federal agencies with biometric data including driver's license photographs. It also states a local police force (the NYPD) was a customer of a facial recognition system. How long until central databases are collecting datapoints on our whereabouts at all times, not only from mobile devices, but just the image of our faces? I don't think the founders [US-centr…

Slightly off topic, but I am curious and don't understand, why do you care what the founders did or did not envision? You live in a democracy, where you elect people to govern the country in a way that suits the majority of the population. The way I see it, these issues aren't about what someone 250(?) years ago wanted, but what the people who are alive today want . If their views outweigh those of the electorate tod…

Because when government no longer represents the people, the constitution is supposed to be a final stopgap.

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#25

Post by dan_bk »

hooliganned wrote: post #24
Ntrails wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly off topic, but I am curious and don't understand, why do you care what the founders did or did not envision? You live in a democracy, where you elect people to govern the country in a way that suits the majority of the population. The way I see it, these issues aren't about what someone 250(?) years ago wanted, but what the people who are alive today want . If their views outweigh those of the electorate tod…

Because when government no longer represents the people, the constitution is supposed to be a final stopgap.

The final stopgap should always be rational thought.

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#26

Post by dan_bk »

rdtsc wrote: post #19
frede wrote: post #7

These revelations are too new to be from Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald and Bruce Schneier suspect a second leaker. https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/485081861119832064

Yap. This is exciting. Just like one bad thing about Snowden (and Binney) was that if public was not outraged enough, it would actually make things worse. As those who administer these programs will just get bolder and expand them. It it a little too early to decide if this effect it taking place. But one good thing is (and I've said this before in relation to the whistleblowers) is that it will encourage more whistl…

> This is exciting.

Not really convinced about that. What's important/exciting should be what we do about it, not how many messengers we have. We really have enough information by now to know what's at stake. Meanwhile, if you remember a couple of months back, the NSA sent out an internal memo stating that they simply intend to "winter the storm", and that seems to be what's happening until now (besides a few more or less symbolical proposals from the gov't).

> [...] it will encourage more whistleblowers.

Not convinced either. Again, we already know that deep changes would be needed. Also, whistleblowers, in this case, are obviously ready to die for their cause. There are not many people like that. And the World's support for people like Snowden has been completely absent or at least appallingly weak. And then, there's the fact that the NSA is currently in a huge lock-down process, which makes me think we won't see another Snowden, when this is done. That's why I believe, either there is change now or pretty much never.

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#29

Post by dalek_cannes »

Ntrails wrote: post #22
infinotize wrote: post #8

The article indicates many states are beginning to supply federal agencies with biometric data including driver's license photographs. It also states a local police force (the NYPD) was a customer of a facial recognition system. How long until central databases are collecting datapoints on our whereabouts at all times, not only from mobile devices, but just the image of our faces? I don't think the founders [US-centr…

Slightly off topic, but I am curious and don't understand, why do you care what the founders did or did not envision? You live in a democracy, where you elect people to govern the country in a way that suits the majority of the population. The way I see it, these issues aren't about what someone 250(?) years ago wanted, but what the people who are alive today want . If their views outweigh those of the electorate tod…

Because democracy without an underlying system of values is indistinguishable from a tyranny by the majority (in other words, it cannot be two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner). That underlying system of values, as I understand, is the constitution. A law can be unconstitutional even if the entirety of congress votes in favor. While specific needs of American society have changed, I don't believe the values espoused by the US founders have changed a great deal over the past two centuries.

Disclaimer: not an American.

Re: Obama's Secret Terrorist-Tracking System, by the Numbers

#30

Post by ctdonath »

infinotize wrote: post #8

The article indicates many states are beginning to supply federal agencies with biometric data including driver's license photographs. It also states a local police force (the NYPD) was a customer of a facial recognition system. How long until central databases are collecting datapoints on our whereabouts at all times, not only from mobile devices, but just the image of our faces? I don't think the founders [US-centr…

Methinks the "killer app" for Google Glass et al is automatic face recognition and dossier summary display (look at someone, and a "bubble" of information is shown above them); unavoidable when its time comes, and will be exploited by those already data-mining all kinds of app usage.
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