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Time for programmers to grow a spine

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Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#21

Post by j2kun »

I appreciate the passionate voice in the article, but he seems to imply that the only way to gain from taking risks is via starting your own business or joining a startup. That's certainly an appropriate theme on HN, but it's not the only way to feel fulfilled, especially if the work you do for money isn't your life.

For example, I am fulfilled by aesthetic pursuits like painting, writing music, and performance literature. I don't fool myself into thinking I am good enough at any of these things to make money off of them. But it's no less fulfilling than the kinds of risks one would take in business. In fact, I'd argue it's more fulfilling to artistically express something about your core self and then put it on display. This is with my impression (from stories on HN) that the startup world can be very superficial.

The point is fulfillment and risk come in many shapes and sizes. You don't have to risk your family's welfare and work 55 hour weeks to get valuable life experiences. Maybe you need it to develop flawless business acumen, but the OP is pretty clearly talking about life experience here.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#23

Post by nikomen »

How am I supposed to spend time with my family if I'm expected to be at work from 9am until 7pm (that would be a 50 hour work week)? Also, I assume that most startups either offer unlimited vacation (which from what I've heard means you don't get to take a lot of vacation), or they offer 2 weeks of vacation to start out. So, I have a couple hours at home with my family and only a couple weeks out of the year to take time off to spend with them. That doesn't add up.

Maybe I'm incorrect about the average startup, but at least from what I've seen and been offered, I would have to give up too much of my family time to work for one.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#24

Post by nsxwolf »

cahlansharp wrote: post #7
jimmaswell wrote: post #4

>I am amazed at how many people use those excuses and yet watch 15 hours or more of T.V. per week. T.V. isn’t inherently bad, but it is a distraction. If you work a 40 hour week and then watch T.V. (or video games, etc.) for 15 hours, you might as well be working in a startup. What the hell is wrong with you? "If you're spending your free time not working, you're distracted! You should be spending it working!" How ab…

Note that I didn't say you needed to work 100 hour weeks. I don't think that you should spend all your time at the laptop, in fact I specifically mentioned helping others and family as a really important investment of time. I just think talking yourself out of working extra hours when you waste a lot of those extra hours is just self deception.

You aren't addressing programmers who want to know why their side projects and startup ideas are never getting off the ground. "Maybe it's because you're playing too many video games" would be a reasonable thing to say to that audience.

You are instead addressing any and all programmers, and are assuming they all want what you want. I hope you realize how off-putting this is to the people who are just fine with working in a "safe" job and chipping away at their 401k and playing with their kids/TVs/Xbox for 15 hours a week.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#25

Post by aaronem »

nsxwolf wrote: post #24
cahlansharp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I didn't say you needed to work 100 hour weeks. I don't think that you should spend all your time at the laptop, in fact I specifically mentioned helping others and family as a really important investment of time. I just think talking yourself out of working extra hours when you waste a lot of those extra hours is just self deception.

You aren't addressing programmers who want to know why their side projects and startup ideas are never getting off the ground. "Maybe it's because you're playing too many video games" would be a reasonable thing to say to that audience. You are instead addressing any and all programmers, and are assuming they all want what you want. I hope you realize how off-putting this is to the people who are just fine with worki…

So they're put off. So what? The strong impression I have is that they aren't the people whom the author is addressing, in any case.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#26

Post by vlunkr »

Who is this article really for? If you want to work for a "safe" company and bring in a good salary and benefits, then go for it. If you want to take the risk and work for a startup, you can do that too! We all value different things and we will seek what interests us the most.

> A fulfilled life is inherently a risky one

Is it really? Is that necessarily true for everyone?

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#27

Post by justinpaulson »

cahlansharp wrote: post #7
jimmaswell wrote: post #4

>I am amazed at how many people use those excuses and yet watch 15 hours or more of T.V. per week. T.V. isn’t inherently bad, but it is a distraction. If you work a 40 hour week and then watch T.V. (or video games, etc.) for 15 hours, you might as well be working in a startup. What the hell is wrong with you? "If you're spending your free time not working, you're distracted! You should be spending it working!" How ab…

Note that I didn't say you needed to work 100 hour weeks. I don't think that you should spend all your time at the laptop, in fact I specifically mentioned helping others and family as a really important investment of time. I just think talking yourself out of working extra hours when you waste a lot of those extra hours is just self deception.

I think more developers should "have a spine" by telling their employers that they refuse to work more than 40 hours a week. That's where the industry needs to grow a spine. You started off on the right track with this line "I hope it includes the people you helped, the children you raised, the spouse you loved dearly," and I was rooting for this article. But then you completely derailed and made the whole article about developers being spineless by not taking on more work at a greater risk. Maybe you will make something great at work and maybe it will out last your life, but most likely, it will not. Do what you enjoy all the time and try to give happiness to others whenever you can. If you don't want to take a job because it is too risky, then don't. But the real problem with spineless developers are those that take on 60-80-100 hour weeks when they really don't want to because they are too spineless to say no.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#28

Post by namenotrequired »

cahlansharp wrote: post #7
jimmaswell wrote: post #4

>I am amazed at how many people use those excuses and yet watch 15 hours or more of T.V. per week. T.V. isn’t inherently bad, but it is a distraction. If you work a 40 hour week and then watch T.V. (or video games, etc.) for 15 hours, you might as well be working in a startup. What the hell is wrong with you? "If you're spending your free time not working, you're distracted! You should be spending it working!" How ab…

Note that I didn't say you needed to work 100 hour weeks. I don't think that you should spend all your time at the laptop, in fact I specifically mentioned helping others and family as a really important investment of time. I just think talking yourself out of working extra hours when you waste a lot of those extra hours is just self deception.

I'm not a programmer, but I do know that there's a reason people watch TV and do other "useless" things, and that is because it's not work. People need balance. Personally I prefer going for a walk or writing, but hey, each their thing.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#29

Post by orteipid »

I have so many angry thoughts running in my head, but I can only sum them up by saying that the author very clearly has a hole somewhere in his life that he needs to fill by projecting his narrow viewpoint on others, and that subsequently this blog post is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Re: Time for programmers to grow a spine

#30

Post by ryankshaw »

This reminds me of the old "Good is the enemy to great" saying.

The author's thoughts rang very true to me. As programmers, it's true, times are good, salaries are high, employment is easy to come by. Sometimes I can't believe how much "easer" it is to live on compared to my non-tech friends & neighbors. But at the same time, that benefit it the worst drawback.

I am that programmer he is talking to. Even though, in the past I have started my own company, and have worked at "scary, early stage startups", I now have a good job, good pay, and I have been the one who has turned down interesting, challenging, fun-sounding opportunities because of "the risk", the "uncertainty".

I miss those days of being fully engaged in what you are building, waking up thinking about the problem, coming up with the solution while you are in the shower. and building it that day.

I guess if I am trying to say anything, it is that maybe we need to reassess the proper kind "risk" as being a plus instead of a negative. Certainly there are are dumb risks, and startups that might make a ton of money but would not be worth thinking about in the shower, or give you that "I'm making the world better" feeling. But the risk of doing something you love, having to give it all you've got, knowing that if you don't build this, no one else will, and that the world will be a better place with it? That's not risk, that's happiness, which is what I'd be spending my money on anyways.

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