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Founders On Depression

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Re: Founders On Depression

#21

Post by marincounty »

wdewind wrote: post #9
johnward wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. When that doesn't work they put you on another, and another. I've been dealing with trying to get some help for years and I'm pretty sure they think I'm just making up shit at this point.

> If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. I have to heavily disagree with you because I don't want your post to dissuade anyone who may be considering looking for help from doing so. It is not an intractable problem. I have tried to get help, and received it with zero medication. The key is to see a therapist (PhD - talk therapy) not a psy…

I'm glad you found a workable solution. I have found no difference between a Psychologist with a Masters, or PhD though--at least here in America. At my age, I would question the motives of any Therapist who felt they needed to get the PhD? Motives--meaning a PhD in Psychology is kind of a joke. Personally, I think they like to use the "Doctor" thing, and charge more. I can guarantee one thing, and there's probally a double blind study floating around, there's no difference in quality of Therapy with going with a PhD, as compared to a MS in Psychology. (One of the funniest stories I heard is the guy who wrote, "Men are from Mars, and women are from Venus" got his PhD from Columbia College in San Rafael, Ca.--yes it's true.) As to medication, I'm on you side. Patients and Doctors have been lied too requarding the efficacy of medications. That said, if you have crippling anxiety, and killing yourself with Alcohol; There are better alternatives. Anyone reading this with who feels terrible, I can honestly state that you will feel better with time.(And no I not a health professional, information is antidotal, blah, etc.) If anyone reads this knows someone who is going through some type of mental illness; you will never know just how bad they feel--be supportive.

Re: Founders On Depression

#22

Post by thinkharder »

johnward wrote: post #10
wdewind wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. I have to heavily disagree with you because I don't want your post to dissuade anyone who may be considering looking for help from doing so. It is not an intractable problem. I have tried to get help, and received it with zero medication. The key is to see a therapist (PhD - talk therapy) not a psy…

It's not that I want to avoid medication I just want whatever can help. I am talking about when you see your general practitioner and they prescribe you the usual antidepressants. A psychiatrist can prescribe much more powerful drugs and probably provide a better diagnoses too. I have not been referred to one of them. I've been to a clinal therapist and while it helped a little bit I'm still no where near what I feel…

As someone who has had, what sounds like a very similar experience to yours, I understand and feel your pain. Folks who have never had to deal with it think it's as simple as going to the doctor. Folks who live in SV tend to forget that in the vast majority of the rest of this country, good mental health help is really hard to get. Outside of the major US cities, your typical family doctor has about the same level of understanding of mental health issues as he has about quantum physics, but he thinks he knows everything he needs to about it. And the vast majority of Mental Healthcare professionals require a referral from your PCP or they won't take you as a patient. The scenario typically goes like this: I go see my Primary Care Physician and complain about depression or some other mental health issue. He listens for a couple of minutes then wants to prescribe zoloft (or celexa or whatever). I ask about seeing a Psychiatrist and get something like "well, he's just going to have his intern ask you a bunch of questions then prescribe the same drug I would..." I ask about seeing a Psychologist, and after some pushing he grudgingly gives me a referral. The psychologist is a really bad fit with me, and isn't helping so now I've got a open-ended prescription for zoloft and no fucking help. Been thru slight variations of the same theme with 3 different primary care doctors. And no, I don't really think any of them believed I actually had a problem, but they'll give endless supplies of zoloft et al., to anyone, for any reason. And they'll happily prescribe it for you forever, without also setting you up with some form of counseling, which is specifically warned against in the drug literature.

What I finally had to do, was talk to a close friend who knows a lot of Mental Health practitioners, partly from using their services, partly from the fact this guy knows everyone in town. He was able to call a friend who is a retired Psychiatrist, who was able to help find someone who would take me without a referral, and further refer me to a good psychologist. There's also the issue that most insurance plans have pretty crappy coverage for this stuff. And since I can't get an in-network referral to an in-network doctor, I'll be paying for most of this out of pocket.

My advice, for the little it's worth, is first... Don't Give Up. It's a fucking absurd pain in the ass, but it is possible to overcome. Think about finding a doctor the same way you would about hiring an employee, that's basically what you're doing. Use your social network, do you know anyone who is in a high-risk group for depression or other mental health issues? It's likely you know someone who has struggled with this and just never said anything. Ask around. It sucks to have to reveal yourself that way, but it's really not as bad as it seems in one's imagination. You will probably be surprised how many people not only get it, but want to help. Try a doctor out, if he isn't working, fire his ass and get another. No different than hiring a contractor. It's easy to load a lot of emotion into the process, but avoid doing this and stick to business. And try not to get sucked into the psychiatry vs psychology wanking contest. They're different approaches, have different tools, and different efficacies for different issues. CBT is great for moderate depression. There's much less evidence it's helpful for ADHD. There's a whole class of medication that's quite effective for ADHD. There's much less evidence that zoloft and friends are useful long term for depression. Extrapolate that out for all the other possible mental health issue a person might have.

At any rate, you're not alone, my friend, and you're not the only one who has had to go thru this shit. It is possible... Email is in my profile, if you need someone to talk to, feel free to contact me. Best of luck.

Re: Founders On Depression

#24

Post by curun1r »

jmathai wrote: post #15
wdewind wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not as a character flaw, but as a reasonable response to a huge amount of stress. I still agree that he is dangerously ambiguous and mostly incorrect though.

It's one thing to have external factors such as stress cause depression. Most of what I read concerning "founder depression" is along those lines. It sucks and isn't something to take lightly, even if some view it as self inflicted. But there's an entirely different class of mental illness that's closely tied to depression; those caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. Stress often amplifies the symptoms (think o…

> I imagine the founder you're quoting has never had a close friend or family member that suffers from the latter.

I would imagine the same, except for the description s/he gives for depression where s/he describes it as being a numbness that can be addictive to fall back into. It is such a spot-on description that he either read it someplace or went through it personally.

Re: Founders On Depression

#25

Post by wdewind »

thinkharder wrote: post #22
johnward wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I want to avoid medication I just want whatever can help. I am talking about when you see your general practitioner and they prescribe you the usual antidepressants. A psychiatrist can prescribe much more powerful drugs and probably provide a better diagnoses too. I have not been referred to one of them. I've been to a clinal therapist and while it helped a little bit I'm still no where near what I feel…

As someone who has had, what sounds like a very similar experience to yours, I understand and feel your pain. Folks who have never had to deal with it think it's as simple as going to the doctor. Folks who live in SV tend to forget that in the vast majority of the rest of this country, good mental health help is really hard to get. Outside of the major US cities, your typical family doctor has about the same level of…

> And the vast majority of Mental Healthcare professionals require a referral from your PCP or they won't take you as a patient. The scenario typically goes like this: I go see my Primary Care Physician and complain about depression or some other mental health issue. He listens for a couple of minutes then wants to prescribe zoloft (or celexa or whatever). I ask about seeing a Psychiatrist and get something like "well, he's just going to have his intern ask you a bunch of questions then prescribe the same drug I would..." I ask about seeing a Psychologist, and after some pushing he grudgingly gives me a referral. The psychologist is a really bad fit with me, and isn't helping so now I've got a open-ended prescription for zoloft and no fucking help.

Holy shit. That is so fucked up dude. I'm sorry.

For what it's worth the vast majority of therapists do not require referrals, but not having a referral can make it impossible to get reimbursed via your insurance, which I know can make it a nonstarter for some.

> There's also the issue that most insurance plans have pretty crappy coverage for this stuff. And since I can't get an in-network referral to an in-network doctor, I'll be paying for most of this out of pocket.

Yeah, it really sucks.

> My advice, for the little it's worth, is first... Don't Give Up. It's a fucking absurd pain in the ass, but it is possible to overcome. Think about finding a doctor the same way you would about hiring an employee, that's basically what you're doing.

I agree 100000%. It's so worth it. I also love using our existing startup skills as a platform for addressing these issues, nice.

Re: Founders On Depression

#26

Post by wdewind »

marincounty wrote: post #21
wdewind wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've ever tried to get help you'll know that they just put you on whatever pill gives them the biggest kick back. I have to heavily disagree with you because I don't want your post to dissuade anyone who may be considering looking for help from doing so. It is not an intractable problem. I have tried to get help, and received it with zero medication. The key is to see a therapist (PhD - talk therapy) not a psy…

I'm glad you found a workable solution. I have found no difference between a Psychologist with a Masters, or PhD though--at least here in America. At my age, I would question the motives of any Therapist who felt they needed to get the PhD? Motives--meaning a PhD in Psychology is kind of a joke. Personally, I think they like to use the "Doctor" thing, and charge more. I can guarantee one thing, and there's probally a…

> At my age, I would question the motives of any Therapist who felt they needed to get the PhD?

As someone who doesn't have a degree believe me I am sympathetic to that view, but the PsyD (PhD) who helped me was pretty great. I don't think it's the degree alone that did that, but it's certainly not worth treating a degree as a negative signal.

Re: Founders On Depression

#28

Post by Domenic_S »

wuliwong wrote: post #17
Domenic_S wrote: post #2

> First of all, not sure I would call depression mental illness. In fact, I am offended by the word. It’s like saying that having a fever when you get a cold is having a muscle illness. I think the majority of people out there are depressed at some point and have no idea because society deems depression as a “mental illness” and therefore as something foreign and strange that only mentally ill people have. Key to add…

I think get what you are trying to say, and as someone who has dealt with panic disorder, severe depression and addiction in my life, I certainly am glad that there is support, that people take it seriously and that there were some people that didn't judge me along the way. That being said, the way you are express your arguments yields some unintended consequences in logic. I believe that your implication that a brok…

> Obviously this is not true for "mental" issues.

It's simplistic, sure. But just because we know less about fixing neurons than we do knitting bones doesn't mean we shouldn't visit a doctor.

> The idea that all "mental" issues are a result of something "broken" in the brain is something very much up for debate.

Sort of, but only really because we don't fully understand what's going on in there. Antidepressants work, we know that, but good luck finding out exactly why they work.

Is depression caused by faulty mood regulation? Genetics? Environment? We're not sure. But we do know that we can treat it -- and usually pretty successfully -- with some chemicals and some talk therapy.

On the science side, yes, it's an interesting problem that we have a lot to learn about. On the patient side, we can do a LOT to make a depressed person's life livable.

Re: Founders On Depression

#29

Post by joeyspn »

Depression, Bipolar, and Borderline disorders are deeply related and linked with creativity (specially bipolarity). The literature and scientific studies that confirm this are numerous [0].

It isn’t rare (at all) to find entrepreneurs that are hypomaniacs or bipolars (periods of depression and periods of mania alternating), most of them undiagnosed. Some people just channel the emotions derived from these disorders into a creation process (entrepreneurs building products, painters crafting pieces, musicians writing songs, etc).

[0] http://is.gd/tMSfmH

Re: Founders On Depression

#30

Post by gonehome »

wuliwong wrote: post #17
Domenic_S wrote: post #2

> First of all, not sure I would call depression mental illness. In fact, I am offended by the word. It’s like saying that having a fever when you get a cold is having a muscle illness. I think the majority of people out there are depressed at some point and have no idea because society deems depression as a “mental illness” and therefore as something foreign and strange that only mentally ill people have. Key to add…

I think get what you are trying to say, and as someone who has dealt with panic disorder, severe depression and addiction in my life, I certainly am glad that there is support, that people take it seriously and that there were some people that didn't judge me along the way. That being said, the way you are express your arguments yields some unintended consequences in logic. I believe that your implication that a brok…

Was with you up until that last paragraph. Strokes and poking around in the brain seem to provide pretty strong evidence that it's all physical. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you were suggesting, since meta-physical doesn't really imply much.
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