An Idiot's Guide to Inequality • Hacker News Board

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#21

Post by Dewie » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:25 AM UTC

> Unfortunately, equal opportunity is now a mirage. Indeed, researchers find that there is less economic mobility in America than in class-conscious Europe.

Class conscious Europe? Oh sure, broad stroke it up. Meanwhile, when it comes to superficial signs of class consciousness and the social norms related to that, I see American doctors introducing themselves as "Dr. ", in both medical and civilian situations. People emphasizing or hinting at having gone to prestigious universities like the Ivy League kind. People referring to their bosses by sir/ma'am. Casually denigrating certain professions, especially janitors. All of these practices are kind of foreign to my part of Europe.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#22

Post by ianmcgowan » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:26 AM UTC

obvious_throw wrote: post #19

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

In which upper-class HN tells someone who grew up poor how poor people think. And then downvotes the heretic, despite relevant, first-hand experience contribution to discussion. Nice.

I grew up in a poor family, and would say the downvotes are for stereotyping and gross generalizations I vehemently disagree with. That may be his story, but it's not mine.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#23

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:26 AM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

You are conflating cause and effect. Being poor does not make it very difficult to think long term but the lack of discipline required to make good short term choices has the effect of keeping you in poverty over the long term. A pattern of good short term choices tends to lead to getting out of poverty whether one is thinking long term or not. I lived a significant portion of my life in pretty severe poverty; I was…

[deleted]

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#24

Post by hibikir » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:29 AM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

You are conflating cause and effect. Being poor does not make it very difficult to think long term but the lack of discipline required to make good short term choices has the effect of keeping you in poverty over the long term. A pattern of good short term choices tends to lead to getting out of poverty whether one is thinking long term or not. I lived a significant portion of my life in pretty severe poverty; I was…

He's not conflating cause and effect: There's plenty of Psychology and Behavioral Economics research on this. People end up thinking that the money they save will disappear with unexpected expenses, so they spend it, because the stress of not having enough money to eat is 'healed' by wasting money, which later makes sure you won't have any money to eat. It's a feedback loop, as bad choices lead to bad outcomes, which increase the chances of even more bad choices. I've seen it happen in people that you'd originally think that they had a whole lot of self discipline: For instance, a very Ph.D student that constantly stressed about how poor she was. Even after her income moved up, it took months for that mindset to go away, because the fear of something wiping her out just made her decisions completely irrational.

You had the discipline to fight it: That's great. But that does not mean that other people's experiences are like yours. Go read the literature.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#25

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:37 AM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

You are conflating cause and effect. Being poor does not make it very difficult to think long term but the lack of discipline required to make good short term choices has the effect of keeping you in poverty over the long term. A pattern of good short term choices tends to lead to getting out of poverty whether one is thinking long term or not. I lived a significant portion of my life in pretty severe poverty; I was…

>Being poor does not make it very difficult to think long term

>I lived a significant portion of my life in pretty severe poverty

My experience suggests the opposite. Much like the study.

The fact that you suggested that it takes discipline, to me, also suggests that you felt the same uphill struggle to be able to do forward planning.

It takes no discipline for me to do forward planning these days. It's easy to focus on now that my income far outstrips my outgoings.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#26

Post by LnxPrgr3 » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 3:47 AM UTC

obvious_throw wrote: post #19

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

In which upper-class HN tells someone who grew up poor how poor people think. And then downvotes the heretic, despite relevant, first-hand experience contribution to discussion. Nice.

To be fair, first-hand anecdotes don't rank high as evidence. But, for what they are worth, I'll add my own.

I am where I am today because my family had enough money to own a computer (and never threw out the old ones, so the kids got to mess with the cast-aways—my first program was for a Kaypro 2), because my brother's interest in programming inspired my own, and because I was able to spend years without adult responsibilities learning everything I could.

That, and my parents fully supported every dive I took into every crazy interest. My parents kept books around and bought me toys to feed my interests—I had a chemistry set, an electronics kit, a violin, multiple microscopes, and access to books on subjects from photography to biology. I lived in nerd heaven… except for that bit where my parents expected me to clean my room.

I was working on a hobby OS in high school (1) because I was smart and dedicated, but also (2) because I didn't really have much else to worry about. I had plenty to eat and a safe place to sleep. Eventually, I even had a dial-up Internet connection, so I wasn't stuck with the local library's computer books from the 80s. All this was straight-up handed to me in the hope I'd do something great with it.

That advantage continues today. Because I have a stable job in middle-class territory, I can spend my free time on whatever crazy experiments I want. I do, and they continue to teach me things, even when the end result only 2 people on Earth actually care about. (Case in point: https://github.com/LnxPrgr3/crossfeed)

I know people in rural Tennessee who see an Internet connection as an unnecessary luxury, and the first bill to be cut when money gets tight. I imagine my life would be dramatically different had I grown up there.

Would I even know what I'd be missing?

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#27

Post by smm2000 » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 4:03 AM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #21

> Unfortunately, equal opportunity is now a mirage. Indeed, researchers find that there is less economic mobility in America than in class-conscious Europe. Class conscious Europe? Oh sure, broad stroke it up. Meanwhile, when it comes to superficial signs of class consciousness and the social norms related to that, I see American doctors introducing themselves as "Dr. ", in both medical and civilian situations. Peopl…

I seriously doubt anyone outside of military refers to their bosses as sir/ma'am. At least I never heard it and in many situation it will sound extremely sarcastic.

People like to talk about their achievments whether it's graduating from Ivy League, getting medical degree or finishing marathon. I do not think it's a class thing.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#28

Post by MisterBastahrd » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 4:18 AM UTC

autokad wrote: post #7

i grew up in a poor family around a lot of poor people. i'm not rich, but definitely out of the poor category. even as a child, i was amazed at the plethora of bad decisions (or simple refusal to give important things a second thought) of the poor people around me, family included. an example was a couple years ago when i mentioned how wonderful it is that we can take free online classes from institutions like harvar…

Those wonderful online classes require a working computer and an internet connection to take them, and aren't worth the printer paper you print the results out on. Unless there's a reputable non-profit organization that can validate the results of those classes and make them worth recognizing, they create a bit of education for the consumer but are worth little in the working world.

Udacity is much better than most MOOCs at this, given that most of them have a limited window for which you can submit projects for completion. My anecdote: I wanted to take classes from Coursera on data science, but I am the sole developer for a publisher and have worked 60-70 hour weeks during the time that they've published the classes due to a project crunch. I don't currently have time to keep up with the course material in order to complete the class satisfactorily.

Now, you can rebut that somewhat by saying that we have free public resources in libraries to take advantage of, but when you're raising a kid and working a shift at the grocery store, you don't have much time to be in the library, most of which have very short hours on Saturdays and are closed on Sundays.

What we need are cheaper computers and subsidized internet access.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#29

Post by webXL » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 4:23 AM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #2

It's amazing to me just how well some political factions in the US have indoctrinated the public to believe that the defense of the common good is some sort of threat to American values, which include, in theory the support and participation in your community. It's gotten to the point where not even poor people are willing to listen or support many of the policies that promote their well being while not being a signi…

I only know about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and e pluribus unum. Perhaps I'm indoctrinated, but are you sure you are free of indoctrination?

The poor aren't supporting policies that promote their well-being? Without evidence, that straw man is pretty easy to knock down.

Re: An Idiot's Guide to Inequality

#30

Post by 21echoes » Sat, Jul 26, 2014, 4:49 AM UTC

obvious_throw wrote: post #19

crdoconnor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being poor renders it very difficult to think long term as the survival instinct kicks in. If you have to constantly worry about whether you can put food on the table and pay the electric bill tomorrow, you simply stop thinking about what happens next month. This instinct kicks in on such a low cognitive level that it's almost impossible to suppress. This makes it very easy to leech profits from the underclasses thro…

In which upper-class HN tells someone who grew up poor how poor people think. And then downvotes the heretic, despite relevant, first-hand experience contribution to discussion. Nice.

are we reading the same thread? OP said "i grew up poor, here are my anecdotes about how poor people are dumb while those are smart get out of poverty", while the responder said "actually, struggling to survive has a broad-range negative cognitive effect, and here are some widely cited and accepted studies from science proving this effect"