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Diversity and Startups

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Diversity and Startups

#21

Post by _pius »

sama wrote: post #17
_pius wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. Sure, but you clearly didn't call the piece "Gender and Startups" or "Sexism and Startups." Presumably the broader title was chosen deliberately. For instance, I'd push back on an essay called "YC and Startups" if it only mentioned one company in one batch, but with a quick token sentence ab…

we shared the stats on founders born outside the US. it's not a perfect map to race, but it's not a bad one either--there are people of all colors in this YC batch. do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"? i had an early draft titled "sexism and startups", but many people pointed out the last 7 paragraphs apply to racial minorities just as much as women.

do you really think we are trying to "score points for 'addressing diversity'"?

That's the net effect; it's not my place to impute a motive.

All I'm saying is that you wrote a piece about sexism and titled it as if it were about a broader topic. And I know that you're usually a sharp, precise writer.

I do recognize that none of this is easy and I think it's admirable that you've addressed this (very thorny) topic. You've said that you plan to address the other aspects of diversity as it relates to YC and I'm looking forward to reading about it.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#22

Post by DanBC »

dang wrote: post #11
minimaxir wrote: post #2

> Specifically, we’d like the community to help by downvoting comments that make HN an unwelcoming place to anyone. That's only a solution for half of the problem on Hacker News. The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics.

> The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics. It isn't user flagging that makes meaningful discussion difficult. It's the discussers, unfortunately, who are doing that. I wonder if you may have cause and effect reversed here. Also, it isn't true that most of these submissions get fl…

{That link returns a "no such item" for me. EDIT: Thanks Minmaxir; not sure why I missed something so obvious}

I used to flag a lot of these stories as soon as I saw them. I stopped doing that and now I wait until the discussion turns toxic - which it almost always does - before I flag them.

I'm not sure that waiting for the conversations to turn awful is a useful tactic.

Also, it would be great to know if there was vote-ring style detection on some of these threads. It feels pretty clear that there is infiltration from RedPill like posters who vote and post in groups, but I am aware that this is strongly playing to my biases and perhaps it's just people who happen to agree with each other.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#23

Post by [deleted] »

harryh wrote: post #18
_pius wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. Sure, but you clearly didn't call the piece "Gender and Startups" or "Sexism and Startups." Presumably the broader title was chosen deliberately. For instance, I'd push back on an essay called "YC and Startups" if it only mentioned one company in one batch, but with a quick token sentence ab…

What's the evidence that sexism is a more tractable problem than racism? Just curious...

[deleted]

Re: Diversity and Startups

#25

Post by minimaxir »

DanBC wrote: post #22
dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics. It isn't user flagging that makes meaningful discussion difficult. It's the discussers, unfortunately, who are doing that. I wonder if you may have cause and effect reversed here. Also, it isn't true that most of these submissions get fl…

{That link returns a "no such item" for me. EDIT: Thanks Minmaxir; not sure why I missed something so obvious} I used to flag a lot of these stories as soon as I saw them. I stopped doing that and now I wait until the discussion turns toxic - which it almost always does - before I flag them. I'm not sure that waiting for the conversations to turn awful is a useful tactic. Also, it would be great to know if there was…

The url is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8083596 ; Markdown does not like it when you put punctuation next to a URL.

I don't think I've ever flagged a thread based on the comments (down votes are sufficient), but that's not a bad idea.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#26

Post by [deleted] »

DanBC wrote: post #22
dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics. It isn't user flagging that makes meaningful discussion difficult. It's the discussers, unfortunately, who are doing that. I wonder if you may have cause and effect reversed here. Also, it isn't true that most of these submissions get fl…

{That link returns a "no such item" for me. EDIT: Thanks Minmaxir; not sure why I missed something so obvious} I used to flag a lot of these stories as soon as I saw them. I stopped doing that and now I wait until the discussion turns toxic - which it almost always does - before I flag them. I'm not sure that waiting for the conversations to turn awful is a useful tactic. Also, it would be great to know if there was…

[deleted]

Re: Diversity and Startups

#27

Post by dang »

DanBC wrote: post #22
dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other half is that most submissions about gender/diversity get flagged to death very consistently, which make it difficult to have any meaningful discussion about these topics. It isn't user flagging that makes meaningful discussion difficult. It's the discussers, unfortunately, who are doing that. I wonder if you may have cause and effect reversed here. Also, it isn't true that most of these submissions get fl…

{That link returns a "no such item" for me. EDIT: Thanks Minmaxir; not sure why I missed something so obvious} I used to flag a lot of these stories as soon as I saw them. I stopped doing that and now I wait until the discussion turns toxic - which it almost always does - before I flag them. I'm not sure that waiting for the conversations to turn awful is a useful tactic. Also, it would be great to know if there was…

> That link returns a "no such item" for me.

Overzealous punctuation. Fixed, thanks.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#28

Post by NaitJones »

sama wrote: post #12
_pius wrote: post #4

Glad the issue's being addressed, but sad that it dodges race almost completely. Making diversity all about gender is effectively playing the topic on "easy mode." Kinda lame, honestly.

it's really hard to address everything in one post, and i think the issues around gender and race in tech are pretty different. (we did include a stat on international founders, many of which are not white.) i don't think we're playing this on "easy mode", but i'm sorry you feel that way.

Let me first say, as someone with two children, both girls, I really appreciate the efforts that are going into making CS careers an accessible option for them, and that includes your post and the sentiment behind it. Kudos to you! What continues to irk me is the almost a disregard for black males when discussing diversity. There isn't a single group less represented in CS than AA males and there isn't a single group that has been more disparately affected by the recession.

I believe that gender and sexual identification is a pretty easy thing to agree on when discussing diversity, because only a cave man would oppose a more welcoming environment, and balanced representation of women and LGBT.

What irks me, is that I know only a hand full of AA males working on silicon valley and they are all friends of mine, and yet they are addressed indirectly in diversity reports as (non whites) as a way of covering up the abysmal rates of black males represented.

My cynical side says that some of this is the result of a culture that currently does not take black males specifically seriously, due to the representation of them in popular culture, but my more rational side tells me that we as black males bear alot of the responsibility ourselves for understanding where the world is going, and to prepare our careers for tomorrows jobs (technology) and to help advance those that need mentoring to get into CS career paths both technical and non technical. Even so, and taking self responsibility, black males will need to be addressed specifically by the same organizations that are addressing diversity and there needs to be a more forthright and brutally honest admission of what is happening. Black men are being left out of another generation of wealth creation and we need to stem (excuse the pun) the tide of that now.

Again, I appreciate the dialog, and I do appreciate the efforts to open up silicon valley to all.

Just my humble take (engage in rotten tomato throwing now)

Re: Diversity and Startups

#29

Post by Castlereagh »

People who are not white males...

I know it's hard to believe, but relative to their proportion in the workforce white males are slightly underrepresented in tech. Additionally, people of color are dramatically overrepresented. It's easy to march under the banner of "men in tech shouldn't act like sexist jerks"—what kind of sexist jerk could object to that?—but the more accurate slogan "we need many fewer Asian males in tech" doesn't sound quite so nice. In fact, it sounds rather nasty. And yet, it's the inevitable implication of increasing diversity.

Re: Diversity and Startups

#30

Post by jfc »

On some level, the tech world isn't living up to its own principles, as it relates to diversity and inclusion (D&I). Many seem to view D&I as being somewhat external to the tech space--it's an issue that other industries have been discussing and is becoming more prominent in tech.

I would posit that the underlying principles of the tech world share a number of core values with D&I.

Think about the open source software movement (OSS). One crucial perspective that the OSS shares with D&I is that both view discrimination as an impediment to progress. OSS licenses include several non-discrimination clauses (economic, field of endeavor, other restrictions). The licenses go to great lengths to ensure the technology is available to everyone.

When you think about the "Cathedral and Bazaar" models of software development, which one is naturally more diverse? The hierarchical, exclusive cathedral, with its rigid structure, serious gatekeepers, and highly-credentialed leadership? Or is it the open air bazaar, with all kinds of people talking (softly or loudly) in a place known for public discourse. A place where anyone can walk by and join in and become part of what's going on?

My point is that the underlying precepts of D&I are similar to principles that already exist in the tech world.

So this isn't really about embracing D&I. Instead, the tech community needs to start living up to its own rhetoric--it's own values. This isn't about adopting an external issue, it's about a community fully aligning with its own values.

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