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European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

stop-ttip.org

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Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#21

Post by gpvos »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #15
waps wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

You seem to lack a basic understanding of the EU, or democracy in general. Volcker can't "push TTIP through without ratification by any kind of elected body". The elected government, eu parliament, in many cases national parliaments will have a strong voice in ratification. This process isn't undemocratic in the least. It's just that the decisions are complex. I'm not strongly in favour of TTIP in its current form, b…

Then a democratic entity has the duty to explain and clarify it to its voters. I am seeing next to nothing of that.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#22

Post by throwaway28974 »

peterclary wrote: post #18
throwaway28974 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? There have been no such deals for the last 20 years and things are working just fine.

Please define "fine", throwaway28974. And for whom?

For everyone, by default.

Please give a pair of two EU countries, one of which is better of because it has struck a deal concerning free trade with the United States in the last two decades that was denied to the other country. I'm curious.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#23

Post by pathy »

pizza234 wrote: post #11
Orinocco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, could someone please explain why CETA and TTIP are worth stopping? Given that the link doesn't seem to, and I don't have time to watch the press conference.

One of the major concerns of the TTIP is the Investor State Dispute Settlements, which allows US investors to be able to sue EU Member States in cases where their investment has been diminished due to regulatory changes made in the public interest (1). This is corporatocracy at its finest. Interesting, the canonical examples have been removed from the Wikipedia TTIP article. The first example is Vattenfall vs. German…

>The first example is Vattenfall vs. Germany. The former, an energy provider, sued and won against the latter, for the decision to phase out nuclear energy.

Vattenfall suing the German state makes sense considering the business impact the change had. Add to that, Vattenfall is wholly owned by the Swedish state so the TTIP should have no impact what so ever on their dealings.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#25

Post by danielweber »

daenney wrote: post #4
happyscrappy wrote: post #3

If this is defeated won't individual deals between each country have to be struck? That seems likely to have a worse outcome for Europe as countries will be played against each other.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

"Negotiated in secret" is totally normal in representative democracies. Negotiation involves a lot of give and take, taking positions that you don't actually want in hopes of getting something else, brinkmanship, and trying to come to a meeting of the minds with the other side.

Now, the full text should be understood when it's time for things to actually be ratified or signed into law.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#26

Post by bgarbiak »

morkbot wrote: post #24

For those wondering what's wrong with TTIP, a while ago Geroge Monibot wrote a well documented piece about it: http://www.monbiot.com/2013/11/04/a-global-ban-on-left-wing-...

...and here's a response from Ken Clarke, a politician, defending the TTIP: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/11/eu-us-t...

In short, he names the parts of the TTIP that are dangerous to democracy as "one comparatively minor element".

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#27

Post by NicoJuicy »

I'm from Belgium, Karel De Gucht (who tried to get ACTA through and the guy who is obviously behind TTIP and CETA also) is also from Belgium, here are some things i know about him or his methods:

Investigation for tax fraud and insider trading ( http://goo.gl/wnBN95 ). He is never going to get punished (the judges are his friends). If he sues me about writing this, i'm probably fucked

These initiatives are trade agreements, that's why the EU can keep the meetings / documents a secret. Also, votes are anonymous when it comes to trade agreements.

As the guy of ACTA, he would simply ignore the democratic rejection of the parlement: http://goo.gl/ucrnNX ).

Here are some videos where he was obviously caught lying about ACTA and the economic importance of it (an interview): http://goo.gl/NG6hOq

He also send a letter in the past to the European Commission to defend ACTA and lied about ACTA: http://goo.gl/8AOmSX

PS. He is the reason why i don't trust the EU i live in. Everyone knows about the above (tax fraud, ...), but nothing happens. He is now getting promoted to head of foreign policy of the EU

PS2. There is nothing you can do about Karel De Gucht... He will try again with another agreement in the future, if this would fail. ( ACTA became CETA became TIPP ). I'm worried that people will resist less every time a new "trade-agreement" comes up

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#28

Post by rmc »

waps wrote: post #10
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

EU citizens ? Why do they matter ? The EU fought hard to get two legal precedents : 1) that international treaties preceed the constitutions of member states (and any and all other laws). 2) that the European Commission would be allowed to agree to international treaties on behalf of member states. There is nobody that can stop this that isn't already in power and Volcker can push this through without ratification by…

> At least now we know why there is no "democratic" in the "European Union" name.

Because any country with "Democratic" in the name is usually a totalitarian undemocratic communist dictatorship? :P

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#30

Post by walterbell »

danielweber wrote: post #25
daenney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to stop this in its current form. It's currently being negotiated in secret, which is never a good sign. It's also very likely to once again include all kinds of directives greatly benefitting a few lobbying partners without the EU citizens knowing what's going on until it's too late.

"Negotiated in secret" is totally normal in representative democracies. Negotiation involves a lot of give and take, taking positions that you don't actually want in hopes of getting something else, brinkmanship, and trying to come to a meeting of the minds with the other side. Now, the full text should be understood when it's time for things to actually be ratified or signed into law.

Secrecy and trust, like hands-off management, are earned.
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