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Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

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Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#21

Post by philcoders »

ryanjshaw wrote: post #17
philcoders wrote: post #12

I posted this link as a new thread, but i think it is worth posting this also here, http://www.elisoriano.com/blog/new-truths-belie-evolution-ev... Would love to hear what the HN community thought on the arguments.

Speaking for myself, I don't understand understand how people can choose a book of questionable origin and authenticity as their authority on matters concerning life and death. Whatever that page is trying to say has most likely already been addressed here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

I scanned the link you posted, found it actually is confirming one of the arguments on the blog post, about the Piltdown man Hoax. And it says in the link you posted that science corrects errors. On the blog post link i posted, one of the arguments is that in the bible it is written the shape of the earth (circle)

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… ISAIAH 40:22

One of the argument of the writer of the blog post, in his other articles (e.g http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/25/from-dust-to-man-a-...). is that Science and the Bible doesn't contradict each other. He points out mistakes of other religions, for the wrongful claims of other religions for example that the earth is only 6000 year old or so.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#22

Post by tptacek »

l0gicpath wrote: post #13
tptacek wrote: post #6

Politics. Religion. Valence issue. Why is this on the front page of HN? It shouldn't be; I flagged it.

I see no reason for your comment, specially when the guidelines are clear about these types of contributions. From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html 4th paragraph from the bottom > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is > inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, > flag it by going to its page and clicking on > the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this…

I disagree with that section of the guidelines.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#23

Post by Liesmith »

paddlepop wrote: post #3

This is very encouraging to see. While it would be nice to live in a world where this kind of policy wasn't necessary it is good to see UK taking this kind of thing seriously. My sister is a English teacher and she shared with me how some of her senior students where not even being taught basic evolution in their science classes owing to the fact that much of the Science faculty were deeply religious.

We do live in a world where this policy isn't necessary. the UK doesn't really have a ton of people who take creationism seriously like the US does. As the article mentions, the state mandates the teaching of evolution in schools, and bans the teaching of pseudoscience. That latter is actually pretty funny since UK educations are crammed with pseudoscience, but aside from a few high-profile cases creationism isn't really a problem there.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#24

Post by Liesmith »

arethuza wrote: post #20

I wonder how accurate it is to say this is for "all UK schools" as education is pretty heavily devolved in the UK - Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own counterparts to the Department of Education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Education#Devolu... NB As an aside, from a UK perspective the title is a bit confusing as "public schools" are private schools here. "State schools" would prob…

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#25

Post by philcoders »

daemonk wrote: post #18
philcoders wrote: post #12

I posted this link as a new thread, but i think it is worth posting this also here, http://www.elisoriano.com/blog/new-truths-belie-evolution-ev... Would love to hear what the HN community thought on the arguments.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?)

In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…

This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#26

Post by t__r »

philcoders wrote: post #12

I posted this link as a new thread, but i think it is worth posting this also here, http://www.elisoriano.com/blog/new-truths-belie-evolution-ev... Would love to hear what the HN community thought on the arguments.

I just don't understand it. What is it exactly that creationists argue against? What part of the theory of evolution do you disagree with? Is it the fact that there is a thing called DNA? That DNA determines traits of organisms? That DNA gets mixed up as organisms multiply? That some traits are better than others? That this process leads to evolution and natural selection?

I'm sure there are, within the field of evolutionary biology, numerous claims that will turn out to be false, as well as many phenomena not yet understood and explained.

But draw from this the conclusion that the theory of evolution is flawed and must be replaced with creationism, is absurd. The basic claims of the theory are well understood and have been confirmed in the real world over and over again.

Just stop the nonsense.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#27

Post by ryanjshaw »

philcoders wrote: post #21
ryanjshaw wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking for myself, I don't understand understand how people can choose a book of questionable origin and authenticity as their authority on matters concerning life and death. Whatever that page is trying to say has most likely already been addressed here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

I scanned the link you posted, found it actually is confirming one of the arguments on the blog post, about the Piltdown man Hoax. And it says in the link you posted that science corrects errors. On the blog post link i posted, one of the arguments is that in the bible it is written the shape of the earth (circle) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… ISAIAH 40:22 One of the argument of the writer of th…

The 'arguments' you refer to are meant to support the idea that the theory of evolution is "senseless" (the author's own choice of words). Given that evolution is pretty much a scientific fact, the author clearly believes that the Bible contradicts science.

Now I'm going to be blunt: neither you nor the author have a sufficient understanding of the philosophy of science to be drawing any conclusions regarding science.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#28

Post by mikevm »

philcoders wrote: post #25
daemonk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bioinformatician with a background in genetics. The argument against evolution in the article, mainly the piltdown man hoax and new sequencing data on neanderthal is extremely weak. I don't think a single example of scientific fraud is enough to discredit the entire community. I actually think the fact that the fraud was found out as a hoax shows that evidence is constantly being scrutinized and re-examined; w…

"The rest of the article dealt with interpreting biblical statements to fit the current undeniable understanding of the universe.", (How do i correctly put a quote here in the replies?) In Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth… This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

> This is written before any scientist can confirm it. Thats not interpretation, its a clearly stated fact, "circle". And he points out if other religion gets it wrong.

The Earth was considered to be a flat disc, so there's nothing of value there. Please do some research before coming here with your bullshit.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#29

Post by quasque »

philcoders wrote: post #12

I posted this link as a new thread, but i think it is worth posting this also here, http://www.elisoriano.com/blog/new-truths-belie-evolution-ev... Would love to hear what the HN community thought on the arguments.

It's a poorly argued essay.

The author starts from an assumption that the Bible is true and cherry-picks evidence in an attempt to support that, choosing the interpretation (or misinterpretation) that best fits into his pre-existing biases.

Not convincing unless one has already been indoctrinated into the belief that everything is 'God-given', rather than being more open-minded and inquisitive about the nature of the world.

Re: Teaching creationism as scientifically valid now banned in all UK public schools

#30

Post by arethuza »

Liesmith wrote: post #24
arethuza wrote: post #20

I wonder how accurate it is to say this is for "all UK schools" as education is pretty heavily devolved in the UK - Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales all have their own counterparts to the Department of Education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Education#Devolu... NB As an aside, from a UK perspective the title is a bit confusing as "public schools" are private schools here. "State schools" would prob…

If you read the article it applies to all the schools that take government money.

Which government though - we have three parts of the UK with different levels of devolution:

- The Northern Ireland Executive

- Welsh Government

- Scottish Government

[NB I was careful to get the name of the institutions correct - the Welsh and Scottish bodies are styled "governments"]

Edit: Mind you - I rather wish it did apply here in Scotland!

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