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So You’re Not Desirable

nytimes.com

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Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#21

Post by [deleted] »

rdtsc wrote: post #11
hangonhn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hated the term "friend zone" because I think it's really as simple as you have just described. One person likes the other and the feeling isn't reciprocated. It's unrequited love. The friendship part makes things more painful and complicated but I don't think it has any bearing on why the person isn't attracted to the other.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

[deleted]

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#22

Post by socrates1998 »

I usually disagree with papers like these but this one is a little more accurate to real life.

The concept of "value" in dating is absurd. Everyone judges value differently. Being attracted to another person has so many variables it can't bit factored in.

Are there some "universal traits" that make people physically attractive? Yes, but that doesn't mean the dating world is a hierarchy with the beautiful people at the top.

And having a super beautiful girlfriend isn't always great. I know models who are insanely insecure about their bodies and are just a pain to be around because they are constantly worried about how they look.

I think I generally date cute girls, but I once dated a that was definitely physically more attractive than most of the rest. She would get tons of attention when we went out. Guys would constantly check her out or give me "Great job man!" looks and comments. I knew she was constantly getting invited to social events, parties and probably dates as well.

This amount of attention can really be unhealthy to a relationship. If she is constantly being tempted by tons of guys and opportunities every day, then its just a matter of time when she starts to think, "You know he is nice, but that other guy was really cute."

And thats really how it ended. She just stopped returning my texts and phone calls one day, so I am pretty sure she just moved on to something else. It wasn't too bad for me, she had a lot of flaws even though she was gorgeous.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#23

Post by edanm »

greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

Firstly, this is a problem I'm not sure is very common - I'm guessing most people do hang out around members of the opposite sex, at work, with friends, etc.

Second, for your specific situation - you say you have a problem. But it's a very solvable one. Find places to hang out with members of the opposite sex. This can be anything from going to specific classes that have women in them and that you also enjoy (e.g. drawing? Pottery? I don't know, depends what you like).

You can also actively try to befriend people who hang out with women.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#24

Post by [deleted] »

edanm wrote: post #23
greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

Firstly, this is a problem I'm not sure is very common - I'm guessing most people do hang out around members of the opposite sex, at work, with friends, etc. Second, for your specific situation - you say you have a problem. But it's a very solvable one. Find places to hang out with members of the opposite sex. This can be anything from going to specific classes that have women in them and that you also enjoy (e.g. dr…

[deleted]

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#25

Post by mjmahone17 »

31reasons wrote: post #8

>>All you need is for others to have the patience to get to know you, and a more level playing field should follow. And a different career than engineering, so you can find more time and possibility of meeting possible mates at work.

Alternatively, work for a company that has a good gender balance, or, if you absolutely can't find that on the engineering side, where you interact with non-engineers.

Though the better alternative is to have a life outside of work. Do yoga. Go for group hikes. Go to non-tech meetups, or street fairs, or concerts. Join a dance class. If you really, really need tech to solve all your problems, use Grouper to get a chance to grab drinks with strangers, while still hanging out with your own friends.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#26

Post by sizzle »

greggman wrote: post #12

I'm not sure how this is helpful. I've known I'm personally more attracted to personality than looks. That's not the problem. The problem is it's hard (at least for me) to get the opportunity to be around members of the opposite sex long enough for them to see my "uniqueness" Personal examples. My last job of 5 years had 100 people on my floor only 2 of which were women. My friends are generally all geeks who have no…

What are your hobbies outside of work? that's a great starting point that will introduce you into a more diverse population. I've heard good things of the 'meetup' website.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#27

Post by Fr0styMatt »

curiouslurker wrote: post #18
luckychild305 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can genuinely recommend you to read 'the game'. Don't get deterred by what people might tell you about it, especially people who have not ready it. It was eye opening to me that it's in your complete control to show people (not only girls, really anybody) your uniqueness, and that you can literally meet dozens of people every week and must not rely on office environment or random coincidence.

"The Game" is only useful in making one realize that attracting women is a learnable skill. I was a big fan for a time but now realize much of what it recommends is like snake oil. I recommend going through David Deangelo's later material (2009+) and also Michael The Wizard. Deangelo's early work made it into "The Game" but even he realized with years of experience that there is a better way (Of course he made tens o…

Any specific recommendations for DeAngelo's later stuff?

I too was big into that whole PUA/game thing in a former life (more theory than practice though) and came to much the same realizations about it, particularly after listening to many of Barry Kirkey's radio shows (the very early ones) where he gave you the non-exaggerated, non-glorified view of what it was like to live in that house.

FWIW I also have a similar problem to the OP. Other things in life I'm sorting out right now but taking up classes again and going to meetups are on my radar for the near future.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#28

Post by [deleted] »

rdtsc wrote: post #11
hangonhn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hated the term "friend zone" because I think it's really as simple as you have just described. One person likes the other and the feeling isn't reciprocated. It's unrequited love. The friendship part makes things more painful and complicated but I don't think it has any bearing on why the person isn't attracted to the other.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

[deleted]

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#29

Post by Exenith »

rdtsc wrote: post #11
hangonhn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hated the term "friend zone" because I think it's really as simple as you have just described. One person likes the other and the feeling isn't reciprocated. It's unrequited love. The friendship part makes things more painful and complicated but I don't think it has any bearing on why the person isn't attracted to the other.

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor. So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing u…

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity).

I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

Re: So You’re Not Desirable

#30

Post by dubfan »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #25
31reasons wrote: post #8

>>All you need is for others to have the patience to get to know you, and a more level playing field should follow. And a different career than engineering, so you can find more time and possibility of meeting possible mates at work.

Alternatively, work for a company that has a good gender balance, or, if you absolutely can't find that on the engineering side, where you interact with non-engineers. Though the better alternative is to have a life outside of work. Do yoga. Go for group hikes. Go to non-tech meetups, or street fairs, or concerts. Join a dance class. If you really, really need tech to solve all your problems, use Grouper to get a cha…

I've never been to yoga but it sounds like a bad place to meet women. Women wearing form-fitting clothing posing in revealing ways tend to be self-conscious about how they can be sexualized and objectified.
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