Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal • Hacker News Board

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#21

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:12 PM UTC

eshvk wrote: post #13

dublinben wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

> Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. The only reason for me to get an Electric Vehicle is the green factor. If instead of my car polluting the environment, there is an increase in say coal factories, not sure how that helps the environment. So there is a need for fuel cells.

Electric vehicles are more efficient well to wheel than gas engines, even if powered by coal plants.

Do you want to manage the emissions from one generation source? Or 100K? Also, as the electrical grid becomes more clean, EVs become cleaner. Not so with ICE vehicles.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#22

Post by wil421 » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:13 PM UTC

Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid.

My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes?

Also, what is the downside to collecting Hydrogen?

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#23

Post by threeseed » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #3

hnnewguy wrote: post #2

First we got to hear the ICE proponents spreading FUD about Electric Vehicles, now we'll get to hear Electric Vehicle proponents spreading FUD about fuel cells.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

> There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere.

Of course "everywhere" means just the US.

Some people really need to wake up and realise that there are nearly 200 countries in the world. Most of which Toyota sells in and Tesla doesn't. It really isn't appropriate to judge the success of a technology based on the available infrastructure for quite a while yet.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#24

Post by outworlder » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

So, instead of using the ubiquitous power grid, we'll need:

- Hydrogen "manufacturing". Guess where most of it come from? Fossil fuels. If you use water, you require a lot of energy input. Actually, in either case you need energy input, so hydrogen is more like a battery, not an energy source.

- Hydrogen distribution/storage. At the refinery, between that and the 'gas' stations, etc. Not all containers are suitable for that (hydrogen is quite difficult to store) and no matter if liquid or gas, the tanks need to be much bigger than a comparable gasoline tank (by energy).

- Actually using the hydrogen. You are using fuel cells to generate electricity, which will power electric engines. Why not skip the middle man? You are using a much more complicated battery, really.

And that just to make the 'charging' faster? How long would it take to cover a country the size of the US with hydrogen stations? I'd put all that infrastructure money on battery research.

This is just Toyota giving up on EVs completely. They just don't want to say it outright. Green companies and all that.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#25

Post by threeseed » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

_Adam wrote: post #10

This is really surprising. What are they thinking? Hydrogen fuel cells STILL have not been proven to be a viable power source for cars. Electricity has been validated time and time again - even before Tesla, there was the EV1. And now the technology is really starting to scale in production volume and performance, along with the infrastructure. Even if they can make a hydrogen vehicle with equal, or even slightly gre…

> I think Toyota just doesn't want to compete with Tesla.

Yes. I am sure Toyota is just terrified by a company that is haemorrhaging money and only sells in a few countries.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#26

Post by hueyp » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #22

Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes? Also, what is the downside to coll…

Hydrogen is no different then what you spell out as downsides for electric vehicles. The best source of hydrogen is natural gas. In order to get hydrogen from non-fossil fuel sources you need cheap non-fossil fuel electricity. If you have that ... whats the problem with electric cars again?

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#27

Post by threeseed » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #8

protomyth wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense." They have in the sense that I go to a station and fill up then leave in a reasonable amount of time. I don't have to alter my driving habits from the last 50+ years.

You go to what station? The one a thousand miles away in California? With an EV, you can "fill up" in your own garage every night, or even while parked at work.

> With an EV, you can "fill up" in your own garage every night, or even while parked at work.

Which requires changes around the world to parking lots, apartments, homes etc.

Most places don't have a power socket for each car space.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#28

Post by outworlder » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #22

Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid. My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes? Also, what is the downside to coll…

> Electric cars IMHO are missing the point, which is to get off fossil fuels. When you switch to an electric vehicle you are just shifting from Gas to Coal. The US still relies heavily on fossil fuels to power the grid.

Yes, because the whole world has the same reliance on fossil fuels as the US. Homework: what's quicker to replace? A few power stations, or the whole vehicle fleet? Also notice that electric engines are way more efficient than gas engines.

> My question has always been: Does shifting from gas to depending on the electrical grid actually help? Or are we just smoking cigars (or e-cigs) instead of cigarettes?

Long or short term? Electrical vehicles do not care where the power comes from. If you are that worried, power your EV yourself at home with solar/wind/whatever power.

> Also, what is the downside to collecting Hydrogen?

If it is from fossil fuels, it is kinda obvious. It is apparently possible to sequester CO2 from the process of extracting hydrogen from natural gas, but I have no idea if it is even required by regulations, or economically viable.

If it is from water electrolysis, then you'll be using the same fossil fuel power plants to split water.

Do not forget that electric cars have WAY less parts (the simplest conceptual car is a battery and engine) and require much less environmentally unfriendly stuff, such as lubricants, additives, etc.

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#29

Post by outworlder » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #25

_Adam wrote: post #10

This is really surprising. What are they thinking? Hydrogen fuel cells STILL have not been proven to be a viable power source for cars. Electricity has been validated time and time again - even before Tesla, there was the EV1. And now the technology is really starting to scale in production volume and performance, along with the infrastructure. Even if they can make a hydrogen vehicle with equal, or even slightly gre…

> I think Toyota just doesn't want to compete with Tesla. Yes. I am sure Toyota is just terrified by a company that is haemorrhaging money and only sells in a few countries.

Is it? Source?

Re: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

#30

Post by dublinben » Tue, May 13, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #15

dublinben wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel cell vehicles have never made any sense. It's still being turned into electricity anyway, so it's still an electric vehicle. There happens to already be a distribution infrastructure for electricity almost everywhere. The same can't be said for hydrogen. According to the US Department of Energy, there are eleven public hydrogen stations in the US, almost all in Los Angeles. There are more compressed natural gas…

You can even put a small natural gas compressor in your garage (of course it only makes sense if gas is available). http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/refueling/Pages/refueling-at-...

Doing some quick math, it would cost ~$14 in natural gas (plus some electricity) to fill up a CNG Honda Civic at home. The same car would cost ~$16 to fill up at a CNG station.

Tesla claims that it costs less than $10 for a similar 250 miles of range in the Model S.

By comparison, it would cost at least $27 to fill up a Civic with gasoline to go the same distance.