The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease • Hacker News Board

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#21

Post by raverbashing » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:14 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #8

ams6110 wrote: post #6

Wait a minute... I thought the notion that saturated fat caused heart disease was settled science. That we had a consensus. Now we realize we're wrong? That scientists cherry-picked data, had inadequate controls? That "too much institutional energy and research money had already been spent ... A bias in its favor had grown so strong that the idea just started to seem like common sense." The tragedy is that after gene…

> Now we realize we're wrong? Nope. "We" have realised that there's money to be made in selling contrarian diet books that tell people what they want to hear.

Yes, because the whole "low-fat" movement is working so fine

Meanwhile in Europe they keep eating whatever they always ate (in moderation), not drinking soda, keep drinking (more moderately hopefully), and don't need a motorized cart to shop at a supermarket.

Even though it's hard to believe, I wouldn't doubt someone found out traditional Belgium fries (yes, in lard, yes, with a good amount of mayo on top) may end up being healthier than a lot of "low fat" crap in a supermarket

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#22

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:16 PM UTC

kareemm wrote: post #17

jacques_chester wrote: post #7

The most recent research still upholds that saturated fats, over and above their contribution to obesity, are a worse risk than polyunsaturated fats. A meta-analysis of 8 randomised controlled trials with 13 thousand subjects showed that a 5% total energy substitution from saturated to polyunsaturated fats reduced risk of coronary heart disease by 10%.[1] The point about substituting hydrogenated fats is good; but it…

A meta analysis of 80 studies involving more than a half million people found no evidence of dangers from saturated fat, or benefits from other kinds of polyunsaturated fats (excluding trans fats, which were shown to be terrible)[1]. [1] http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/study-questions-fat...

That meta-analysis was not based on randomised controlled trials. It was largely based on observational and self-reporting studies, which are notoriously inaccurate.

Moreover, it was subject to numerous corrections due to sloppy work by the authors:

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/03/scientists-fix-err...

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#23

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:17 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #21

jacques_chester wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now we realize we're wrong? Nope. "We" have realised that there's money to be made in selling contrarian diet books that tell people what they want to hear.

Yes, because the whole "low-fat" movement is working so fine Meanwhile in Europe they keep eating whatever they always ate (in moderation), not drinking soda, keep drinking (more moderately hopefully), and don't need a motorized cart to shop at a supermarket. Even though it's hard to believe, I wouldn't doubt someone found out traditional Belgium fries (yes, in lard, yes, with a good amount of mayo on top) may end up…

Both lard and the oils used in mayo are mostly unsaturated fats, by the way.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#24

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:17 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #19

jacques_chester wrote: post #7

The most recent research still upholds that saturated fats, over and above their contribution to obesity, are a worse risk than polyunsaturated fats. A meta-analysis of 8 randomised controlled trials with 13 thousand subjects showed that a 5% total energy substitution from saturated to polyunsaturated fats reduced risk of coronary heart disease by 10%.[1] The point about substituting hydrogenated fats is good; but it…

What if there are other diseases beside heart disease that might be helped by consuming saturated fats?

Then people with those diseases should follow the advice of their doctor and/or a registered dietitian. The rest of us live in middle-of-the-curve land, where vengeful sigmas kill more people from heart disease than almost everything else.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#25

Post by higherpurpose » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:17 PM UTC

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #14

ams6110 wrote: post #6

Wait a minute... I thought the notion that saturated fat caused heart disease was settled science. That we had a consensus. Now we realize we're wrong? That scientists cherry-picked data, had inadequate controls? That "too much institutional energy and research money had already been spent ... A bias in its favor had grown so strong that the idea just started to seem like common sense." The tragedy is that after gene…

This is the same problem I have with the extreme push towards global warming mitigation. Half a century ago we were worried sick about global cooling . Sure, we know more now than we did then. But that is not a valid response: in any decade we know more than in decades before that. Most of the measures for global warming mitigation either directly cause massive economic costs (large taxes, etc, etc, which all end up…

It's not just about coal and oil's effect on global warming, but their effect on human health, too. The faster we move to cleaner technologies, the better. Wouldn't you like the children to grow in a healthier world?

The situations are different here. It's not like in 50 years we'll discover that "hey, wait a minute - inhaling coal fumes is actually good for us!" - which is what you're trying to imply with your comment.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#26

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:21 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #21

jacques_chester wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now we realize we're wrong? Nope. "We" have realised that there's money to be made in selling contrarian diet books that tell people what they want to hear.

Yes, because the whole "low-fat" movement is working so fine Meanwhile in Europe they keep eating whatever they always ate (in moderation), not drinking soda, keep drinking (more moderately hopefully), and don't need a motorized cart to shop at a supermarket. Even though it's hard to believe, I wouldn't doubt someone found out traditional Belgium fries (yes, in lard, yes, with a good amount of mayo on top) may end up…

I agree with you about moderation, but the argument here isn't really about moderation.

It's about whether saturated fat is or is not distinguishably unhealthier than other sources of fat, once other factors (most importantly, obesity) are controlled for. The evidence from properly constructed studies suggest that it is.

For my own self, I know that red meat and saturated fat increase my risk of heart disease. But they are delicious, so I eat them -- in moderation. And I monitor and control other risk factors such as exercise and blood pressure.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#27

Post by smtddr » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:21 PM UTC

I would just like to point out that earlier[1] there was a discussion around science not showing any evidence of GMO harm. We don't have a complete understanding of nutrition and the human body; and there's a lot of money to be made making everyone believe one thing or another. Anyone who thinks they have it "all figured out" is setting themselves up for a surprise.

Even I admit that my chasing of labels such as Non-GMO and USDA Organic could also be a big marketing scam and they could very well be selling me the same pesticide-soaked, GMO-glued-together, sweetener-laced, antibiotic+steroids pumped food that everyone else is buying while charging me a 40% markup for a lie. But since I'm confident we're all just rolling dice here, I choose to gamble on chasing food that's supposedly very similar to what my family has been getting it for generations in Nigeria with no particularly notable health issues except 2 instances of diabetes. One of them came to America, started eating all the common fast foods, drinking, smoking, etc for over a decade. The other is related to depression and change of eating habits while still in Nigeria.

If I'm wrong... I'm wrong. But I hope this lets people know that our current science(and social/economical incentives around it) is not good enough to use as a debate-closer of health & fitness discussions. There are contradictions[2][3] out there. I suspect that at the end of the day, what's good for one person can be poison for another and all our attempts at generalizing health & fitness guidelines for everyone will ultimate end in failure. We'll all have to go into the hospital, get a DNA sample and get customized health & fitness advice - and that's assuming we can remove the economic incentives for hospitals/doctors to just tell us whatever it takes to sell some expensive "solution".

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7671699

2. "Many of the bacteria are species that the researchers had never seen before. And even familiar microbes were present in unusual levels in the Hadza belly. “The Hadza not only lack the ‘healthy bacteria,’ and they don’t suffer from the diseases we suffer from, but they also have high levels of bacteria that are associated with disease,” Crittenden said." ---- http://www.wired.com/2014/04/hadza-hunter-gatherer-gut-micro...

3. " Unlike their Western counterparts, the Tarahumara don't replenish their bodies with electrolyte-rich sports drinks. They don't rebuild between workouts with protein bars; in fact, they barely eat any protein at all, living on little more than ground corn spiced up by their favourite delicacy, barbecued mouse. ---- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-...

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#28

Post by kareemm » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:24 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #22

kareemm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A meta analysis of 80 studies involving more than a half million people found no evidence of dangers from saturated fat, or benefits from other kinds of polyunsaturated fats (excluding trans fats, which were shown to be terrible)[1]. [1] http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/study-questions-fat...

That meta-analysis was not based on randomised controlled trials. It was largely based on observational and self-reporting studies, which are notoriously inaccurate. Moreover, it was subject to numerous corrections due to sloppy work by the authors: http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/03/scientists-fix-err...

Thanks, hadn't seen this link. I'd like to see the specifics of what the errors are. Agree that observational and self-reporting are inaccurate, though unfortunately they're some of the best data we've got wrt nutrition.

Also, looks like there were some random trials in the meta analysis. From your link:

"These included trials in which participants were randomly assigned to different diets, as well as observational studies in which participants' intake of fatty acids was determined by asking them about their diet or by measuring the fatty acids circulating in the bloodstream."

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#29

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:26 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #26

raverbashing wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because the whole "low-fat" movement is working so fine Meanwhile in Europe they keep eating whatever they always ate (in moderation), not drinking soda, keep drinking (more moderately hopefully), and don't need a motorized cart to shop at a supermarket. Even though it's hard to believe, I wouldn't doubt someone found out traditional Belgium fries (yes, in lard, yes, with a good amount of mayo on top) may end up…

I agree with you about moderation, but the argument here isn't really about moderation. It's about whether saturated fat is or is not distinguishably unhealthier than other sources of fat, once other factors (most importantly, obesity) are controlled for. The evidence from properly constructed studies suggest that it is. For my own self, I know that red meat and saturated fat increase my risk of heart disease. But th…

The problem with red muscle meat is it has a good bit of trans-fats in it, and also excess of methionine and tryptophan relative to other amino acids (notably glycine). But the saturated fat is harmless. You can eat as much coconut oil as you want. Saturated fat is not the problem. Yet for the reasons above, eating too much muscle meat is to be avoided.

Re: The Questionable Link Between Saturated Fat and Heart Disease

#30

Post by raverbashing » Sat, May 03, 2014, 11:27 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #7

The most recent research still upholds that saturated fats, over and above their contribution to obesity, are a worse risk than polyunsaturated fats. A meta-analysis of 8 randomised controlled trials with 13 thousand subjects showed that a 5% total energy substitution from saturated to polyunsaturated fats reduced risk of coronary heart disease by 10%.[1] The point about substituting hydrogenated fats is good; but it…

Good

What about only reducing saturated fats by 5% (replacing it with carbs, or something else?) and maintaining PUFA levels?

What about adding the PUFAs, maintaining SFAs and reducing caloric intake somewhere else?

Consumption of PUFAs have a known effect on cardiac health, so the result of this work is 1) not surprising 2) saying nothing about SFAs (what about diets with different levels of SFAs and no difference in PUFAs?)