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Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

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Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#21

Post by andreyf »

stcredzero wrote: post #17
andreyf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a free thinker award to give, I'd give you one. It's amazing how otherwise "open minded" people seem to fall prey to the dogmas of organic/all-natural/no-additives/USDA-approved/recycled-packaging marketing. But seriously people, how many lives does genetically engineered rice have to save before you admit that "all natural" sometimes means "inferior", and "artificial" is sometimes "good". You know what's 10…

I don't think the original commenter was thinking along these dogmatic lines. I think he's coming from the direction that there's a lot that we don't know about food, and how our metabolism works. Sometimes, it's best to leave well enough alone, until we understand more. As for hybrid rice, yes, it saved lots of lives. But many argue that there were negative side effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution…

Informative example, but metaphor != empirical evidence. Why not claim that USDA approved organic food is the "white rice" of our times?

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#22

Post by RobertL »

All food is organic because it contains molecular carbon. Only exceptions might be salt which is composed of inorganic NaCl. Even sea salt is inorganic it's just got a lot impurities in it like Radioactive Uranium and Radioactive Radium. Radioactive Radium is even more toxic than radioactive Plutonium. Other than that though, it's really good stuff.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#23

Post by andreyf »

darkxanthos wrote: post #15
andreyf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a free thinker award to give, I'd give you one. It's amazing how otherwise "open minded" people seem to fall prey to the dogmas of organic/all-natural/no-additives/USDA-approved/recycled-packaging marketing. But seriously people, how many lives does genetically engineered rice have to save before you admit that "all natural" sometimes means "inferior", and "artificial" is sometimes "good". You know what's 10…

How is it that saying what goes into our food must be going into our bodies Means we aren't thinking straight? Don't forget there was a period when cigarettes were seen as ok for you too.

How is it that saying what goes into our food must be going into our bodies Means we aren't thinking straight?

Because that would be a gross oversimplification of "food" and "bodies". Many drugs have a narrow therapeutic index, meaning the difference between "save your life" and "kill you" is a small matter of dosage. How do you explain that using "what going into your body must be [good|evil]".

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#24

Post by andreyf »

mcantelon wrote: post #20
andreyf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had a free thinker award to give, I'd give you one. It's amazing how otherwise "open minded" people seem to fall prey to the dogmas of organic/all-natural/no-additives/USDA-approved/recycled-packaging marketing. But seriously people, how many lives does genetically engineered rice have to save before you admit that "all natural" sometimes means "inferior", and "artificial" is sometimes "good". You know what's 10…

Living in a society with rising cancer rates and given the choice between food bathed in possibily carcinogenic pesticides and food that isn't, curiously enough I'll choose the food without the pesticides.

If you avoid everything "possibly carcinogenic", or even everything "certainly carcinogenic", you'll have a very long and boring life.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#25

Post by blasdel »

enthalpyx wrote: post #3

But it is more tasty.

All 'Organic' means for produce is no pesticides. Pesticides have little or no effect on flavor, especially if you wash your damn food.

Fresh, ripe, varietal, easily-spoiled produce grown in non-industrial settings at a small scale on non-exhausted land by small groups of opinionated people does taste better.

It used to be that produce sold as 'Organic' was largely correlated with the above, but now 'Organic' is a huge profit center for big agribusiness. Being grown without pesticides doesn't make the standard shitty produce any better tasting, nor is it really much better for the environment. It just has bigger profit margins.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#26

Post by kwamenum86 »

jacoblyles wrote: post #7
kwamenum86 wrote: post #2

I never thought the argument was that organic food is more beneficial nutritionally. I thought it is supposed to be less harmful overall. This is an important distinction.

I'm not aware of any quantitative research which shows that, though it is a popular opinion in California, regardless. Edit: Thanks, down-modders. Real mature. You know what you call beliefs without evidence? Religion. How about pointing out some evidence if you disagree with me?

I have lived on the east coast my entire life so I would say it is a popular belief elsewhere. My understanding is that when you consume organic food you consume less chemicals, etc.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#27

Post by jacoblyles »

tvon wrote: post #14
jacoblyles wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any quantitative research which shows that, though it is a popular opinion in California, regardless. Edit: Thanks, down-modders. Real mature. You know what you call beliefs without evidence? Religion. How about pointing out some evidence if you disagree with me?

I suspect you were down modded for making a snide comment. I for one down-modded you for obnoxiously whining about being down-modded, something which I'm quite sick of.

Well, you'd figure that a belief that people hold so vehemently would have some evidence behind it. I really haven't seen any. But I guess it's accepted to hold a belief without evidence if it conforms to group norms. Snide comment or not, this group of unusually smart people is not so different from other groups that are held in low esteem by it. It's funny how that happens.

It's interesting, and telling, that several hundred smart people have viewed this comment, but not one of them has decided to offer a link to any sort of evidence.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#28

Post by dejb »

andreyf wrote: post #16
tvon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a ridiculous argument. You could distribute Big Macs to the starving masses and credit McDonalds with saving millions of lives, but that wouldn't make it recommended eating for those of us with access to alternatives.

It isn't an argument - note my use of the word "sometimes". It's a counter-example to the dogma of organic == good, artificial == evil. The burden of proof that a BigMac would be healthier if it were made from "all natural" ingredients. So, show us one study which shows people who only consume "organic" food to be healthier than those who eat genetically engineered food. You simply won't find it. For a more concrete…

You are demonstrating the same 'them and us' attitude that is present in the original article. You show your mistake by lumping together 'organic/all-natural/no-additives/USDA-approved/recycled-packaging' as if they were all a single proposition pushed by some united group of science haters. If you can't evaluate each proposition on it's merits then you are failing prey to dogma yourself.

> the burden of proof that a BigMac would be healthier if it were made from "all natural" ingredients.

Why should the burden of proof fall one way or the other on this proposition? This is the classic technique of those who see themselves as guardians of scientific orthodoxy.

> which gives more evidence for vegetarianism being related to good health than the "organic" lobby could ever dream of for "organic food"

That doesn't mean that knowing the value of organic food also wouldn't be useful.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#29

Post by dejb »

andreyf wrote: post #21
stcredzero wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the original commenter was thinking along these dogmatic lines. I think he's coming from the direction that there's a lot that we don't know about food, and how our metabolism works. Sometimes, it's best to leave well enough alone, until we understand more. As for hybrid rice, yes, it saved lots of lives. But many argue that there were negative side effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution…

Informative example, but metaphor != empirical evidence. Why not claim that USDA approved organic food is the "white rice" of our times?

In the absence of solid evidence, metaphorical reasoning is a valid technique to use to explore the possibilities.

> Why not claim that USDA approved organic food is the "white rice" of our times?

Why not indeed. It could be true. How does one work out the a priori likelihood of this being true to know whether it is worth looking into further? Metaphors might be one valid method. I can see an argument that some pesticides actually enhance human health. An analogue here would be the decline in iodine levels in milk when farmers stopped using iodophors.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/184_06_200306/letters_20...

I'm not saying I think the proposition is likely to be true but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand and I wouldn't assume you are being unscientific for proposing it without proof.

Re: Organic Food Isn't More Nutritious

#30

Post by KhuramMalik »

kwamenum86 wrote: post #2

I never thought the argument was that organic food is more beneficial nutritionally. I thought it is supposed to be less harmful overall. This is an important distinction.

Yes, absolutely. Conventional produce has residue of pesticide, for example on the skin of an Apple.

There was a study done that highlighted that some of the pesticides used in conventional produce can have a carcinogenic effect even in 1 part per trillion.

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