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Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

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Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#21

Post by pjscott »

nostromo wrote: post #6
patio11 wrote: post #2

Awesome, though it might take a bit of air out of the tech-as-a-solution-to-jobs when one hears the qualifier "BTW, they're university-educated CS majors." (At a university with an absolutely terrible career services department, even by the low standards of career services departments.)

My head almost exploded from sloppy statistics reading the article. > Six months after the first Access Code class of 21 students completed the 18 week course, the 15 graduates who accepted job offers have seen their income rise from under $15,000 to an average of $72,190; the other six students are either still in college or have chosen to launch their own startups 1: Those not getting a job were not included in the…

I think the rule of thumb is that articles containing statistics are guilty until proven innocent. There are just so many ways to get a wrong answer that fits a convenient narrative, and so few right answers.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#22

Post by cjbarber »

Also worth mentioning:

CodeNow (DC and San Francisco) http://codenow.com/ (currently appears down)

CodeCamp (East Palo Alto) http://www.epacoding.com/

For people in the tech industry, helping out programs like these is an awesome way to give back. Fun, engaging, direct, and makes good use of the skills you already have (i.e. in a volunteering teaching position).

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#23

Post by Ologn »

grannyg00se wrote: post #15

"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training." This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013.

Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were.

The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly.

The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive.

A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest.

They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that.

I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class.

Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#24

Post by vishaldpatel »

w1ntermute wrote: post #20
jukay wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. Also, there many other adults from other backgrounds that never have a chance to learn iOS or ruby or code. We want to provide those opportunities and build a new pipeline of technical talent, particularly for underserved communities.

> There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. How many CS majors at more prestigious schools learn iOS or Ruby on Rails through their classes? I think they usually learn on their own or through internships.

And they have a name-brand degree going for them.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#25

Post by cbhl »

Ologn wrote: post #23
grannyg00se wrote: post #15

"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training." This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in do…

I'm under the impression that entry-level CS jobs pay well enough now that there are people who enter the field because of the money, or because their helicopter parents told them they'd get a good, stable (ha, ha) job in it, and not just because they love the field.

I personally think that's a shame, but on the other hand, I'd rather it be CS than, say, Actuarial Science. If you love food, for example, I bet there are jobs that tie CS and food together. Same for finance, etc.

I recently read Marilla D. Svinicki's Learning and Motivation in the Postsecondary Classroom; I'd recommend you borrow a copy from your local university library if they have one. I think there's a lot that instructors can do to make class more interesting for students and also have them learn more in the end. Though juggling that and research is a challenge in and of itself.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#26

Post by null_ptr »

Ologn wrote: post #23
grannyg00se wrote: post #15

"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training." This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in do…

They're there because they heard they'll get a big salary they don't deserve at the end of those 4 years, not because they have any interest in the field or want to contribute anything to the world.

It's probably been like this since the dot-com era and the mediocrity has only snowballed since. The state of the software industry and the educational institutions around it is an embarrassment. If the curriculum was any good, these minimum-effort clowns would not be able to earn a degree in Computer Science.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#27

Post by null_ptr »

vishaldpatel wrote: post #24
w1ntermute wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. How many CS majors at more prestigious schools learn iOS or Ruby on Rails through their classes? I think they usually learn on their own or through internships.

And they have a name-brand degree going for them.

> And they have a name-brand degree going for them.

And you can bet your ass they know what "version control" is and can pick up some flavor of the month framework without someone needing to hold their hands.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#28

Post by cmsmith »

nostromo wrote: post #6
patio11 wrote: post #2

Awesome, though it might take a bit of air out of the tech-as-a-solution-to-jobs when one hears the qualifier "BTW, they're university-educated CS majors." (At a university with an absolutely terrible career services department, even by the low standards of career services departments.)

My head almost exploded from sloppy statistics reading the article. > Six months after the first Access Code class of 21 students completed the 18 week course, the 15 graduates who accepted job offers have seen their income rise from under $15,000 to an average of $72,190; the other six students are either still in college or have chosen to launch their own startups 1: Those not getting a job were not included in the…

Also:

People switching car insurance providers saved money. Those who would have spent more money probably chose not to switch.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#29

Post by m_ke »

Ologn wrote: post #23
grannyg00se wrote: post #15

"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training." This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?

I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013. Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were. The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly. The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in do…

As someone who got to experience CS education at Columbia and Queens College I think the main reason for this is the fact that CUNYs are commuter schools. Most people at Queens College grew up in Queens, have plenty of family and friends in the area and only step on campus when they have class.

On the other hand, at Columbia most freshmen come in not knowing anyone and have no option but to go out and meet other students, join clubs and get involved in their departments. Now you have a bunch of brilliant CS majors, some of whom have been programming since the age of 5, spending most of their time together and learning from each other. The ones who are not up to speed usually catch up in a semester or 2. I've seen plenty of new student come into the Fall hackNY not knowing what Git is and then using node.js and angular few months later at the Spring hackathon.

I'd bet most CS students at Queens College, like a good portion of incoming freshmen at Columbia, don't even know what a hackathon is. There's no ADI at QC, no workshops, no info sessions from top companies, no hackathons and in most cases not even research positions.

Re: Nonprofit in Queens taught people to write apps, incomes rose from $15k to $72k

#30

Post by jukay »

kapkapkap wrote: post #19
jukay wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm the founder of the organization. 85% of the class had never written a line of code before. We believe that there are people in Queens and other underserved communities who can learn to code and also pursue tech entrepreneurship.

Your quote in the articles says -- "We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry" --- You can't graduate as a CS major without writing any code...So this quote has nothing to do with the people actually in your program?

That quote was part of a longer conversation, it was asking why we saw the need for this. The idea of even students studying CS not having access and opportunities point out the opportunity to open this up to other people in these communities
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