H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934) • Hacker News Board

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#21

Post by yukichan » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:32 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #17

This strikes me as fake. Maybe entirely written by Wells, or someone else. I thought this bit was interesting: On the other hand we have the class of the poor, the exploited class, which owns neither factories nor works, nor banks, which is compelled to live by selling its labour power to the capitalists and which lacks the opportunity to satisfy its most elementary requirements. What are these elementary requirement…

Wells didn't have a recording device, so to perfectly record such large, articulate and complicated back and forths in a conversation probably involved some ghostwriting from memory on Well's part. It was a different time.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#22

Post by osipov » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:38 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #20

osipov wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a side note, HN is increasingly turning into reddit and with offtopic articles like this one has become a place for political propaganda.

I was merely surprised that someone could interview a leader of a country in which millions had died of starvation and not bring the subject up. Edit: Probably rather unwise of me to bring the subject up at this moment in time...

History is written by victors. Your image of Stalin is based on the history that was written about him after his death by people who openly declared themselves as victors over Stalinism. Remember, Stalin's image in 1930s was very different, culminating in Time's Man of the Year cover in 1939.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#23

Post by wsxcde » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:45 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #4

Not one mention of the terrible famine in the Ukraine which had occurred over the two previous years. As Malcolm Muggeridge wrote, initially a supporter of the Soviets until he witnessed what their policies actually meant as a correspondent for the Guardian in Moscow: "The novelty of this particular famine, what made it so diabolical, is that it was the deliberate creation of a bureaucratic mind, ... without any cons…

Honest question, what's the point being made here? Are you attempting to imply that because Stalin presided over a terrible famine his political ideals must be flawed?

Churchill and friends presided over the Bengal famine of the 1940s. Six million people died in a famine during which food was exported out of Bengal to aid the British war effort. Or what about the British East India company raising land taxes from 10% to 50% during the great Bengal famine of the 1770s. A famine which killed 1/3rd of the population of Bengal. Also a famine which saw the British East India company's profits increase from 15 million to 30 million (non-inflation adjusted) rupees.

Do you think any of this counts against capitalism or do you have any reasons why we should disregard these anecdotes but count the Ukrainian famine against socialism?

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#24

Post by steve_benjamins » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:46 PM UTC

Fascinating how important the questions of class and revolution are in this conversation (from both Stalin and Wells).

Equally interesting is how theoretical and ideological the answers are.

Great read!

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#25

Post by steve_benjamins » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #4

Not one mention of the terrible famine in the Ukraine which had occurred over the two previous years. As Malcolm Muggeridge wrote, initially a supporter of the Soviets until he witnessed what their policies actually meant as a correspondent for the Guardian in Moscow: "The novelty of this particular famine, what made it so diabolical, is that it was the deliberate creation of a bureaucratic mind, ... without any cons…

It is pretty clear Wells wasn't trying to confront Stalin on historical events here. This was mostly a theoretical and ideological discussion.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#26

Post by sillysaurus3 » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 2:56 PM UTC

osipov wrote: post #22

arethuza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was merely surprised that someone could interview a leader of a country in which millions had died of starvation and not bring the subject up. Edit: Probably rather unwise of me to bring the subject up at this moment in time...

History is written by victors. Your image of Stalin is based on the history that was written about him after his death by people who openly declared themselves as victors over Stalinism. Remember, Stalin's image in 1930s was very different, culminating in Time's Man of the Year cover in 1939.

Could it be false that he was a mass murderer and a bank robber? (That's tangental to the original question of famicide, but it's interesting to think that his atrocities were fabricated.) Is there any evidence of this? It seems extremely unlikely, but I'm wondering what you're basing your comments on.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#27

Post by parasubvert » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 3:02 PM UTC

osipov wrote: post #22

arethuza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was merely surprised that someone could interview a leader of a country in which millions had died of starvation and not bring the subject up. Edit: Probably rather unwise of me to bring the subject up at this moment in time...

History is written by victors. Your image of Stalin is based on the history that was written about him after his death by people who openly declared themselves as victors over Stalinism. Remember, Stalin's image in 1930s was very different, culminating in Time's Man of the Year cover in 1939.

Certainly much or his image in the 1930s was formed by propaganda. Khrushchev's leaked 1956 speech denouncing Stalin's crimes seems to be the dynamite that threw communists globally into despair for a time. Were they the "victors"?

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#28

Post by jrochkind1 » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 3:10 PM UTC

The little preface says that Wells was critisized for being too 'deferential' toward Stalin (Wells was a socialist, of course).

It is actually striking to me... today, one can imagine NO journalist engaging in as _confrontational_ an interview with ANY politician or person in political power. Politicians today don't even expect to talk about ideas, certainly not with journalists for publication, let alone to be challenged on ideas in such conversations.

It's also interesting to be reminded that Stalin was indeed a guy who could talk about ideas.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#29

Post by monochr » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 3:12 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #4

Not one mention of the terrible famine in the Ukraine which had occurred over the two previous years. As Malcolm Muggeridge wrote, initially a supporter of the Soviets until he witnessed what their policies actually meant as a correspondent for the Guardian in Moscow: "The novelty of this particular famine, what made it so diabolical, is that it was the deliberate creation of a bureaucratic mind, ... without any cons…

>The novelty of this particular famine, what made it so diabolical, is that it was the deliberate creation of a bureaucratic mind

As opposed to the Indian and Irish famines where strong state intervention would have saved the majority of the people but the sacrosanct ideas of free market capitalism did not allow that. The Ukrainian famine is neither unique nor that bad by world standards. The reason why it was shocking to the West is that it happened decades after most other major powers developed trade systems robust enough to deal with similar catastrophes in their own empires. Russia like always was lagging a decades behind the rest of the West. Much the same way the cultural revolution and great leap forward are shocking, they happened at the same time that men were circling the moon, but in a country which had much more in common with the England of the 1830's or the Russia of the 1910's than any other power then.

Re: H. G. Wells’ interview with Stalin (1934)

#30

Post by cynicalkane » Sun, Apr 20, 2014, 3:14 PM UTC

wsxcde wrote: post #23

arethuza wrote: post #4

Not one mention of the terrible famine in the Ukraine which had occurred over the two previous years. As Malcolm Muggeridge wrote, initially a supporter of the Soviets until he witnessed what their policies actually meant as a correspondent for the Guardian in Moscow: "The novelty of this particular famine, what made it so diabolical, is that it was the deliberate creation of a bureaucratic mind, ... without any cons…

Honest question, what's the point being made here? Are you attempting to imply that because Stalin presided over a terrible famine his political ideals must be flawed? Churchill and friends presided over the Bengal famine of the 1940s. Six million people died in a famine during which food was exported out of Bengal to aid the British war effort. Or what about the British East India company raising land taxes from 10%…

There's no part of capitalism that requires the oppression of others, except in maybe some metaphorical economic sense. In communism the ability to oppress is a necessary feature of the system (and if you don't think so, read Marx). The world has seen many implementations of capitalism that don't involve forcing large numbers of people to starve. The same cannot be said of communism.