We interviewed a few and will probably never consider resumes from bootcamp grads again. Calling them Jr. isn't even fair towards CS grads that are actual Jr. level
Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
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Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#22I will say that where I work we appear to have managed to get on a list of "startups to send your resume to" by one or two of these bootcamp shops, and the resumes tend to be severely underwhelming. Here are some of the things that have been negatively affecting my reaction to them (I share in hopes this is useful, not to bash bootcamps or folks that attend them!): ONLY A GITHUB PROFILE It seems pretty clear that the…
This is similar to what I've seen. It is challenging enough being a startup, its even more challenging to try to be a remedial computer science program and get stuff done. What is strange is the exact same thing happened in the late 90's during the first bubble. In that case it was "webmaster" was the new thing and there were these sorts of boot camps that would turn you into a webmaster in just a few short weeks so…
>its even more challenging to try to be a remedial computer science program and get stuff done.
I have even felt this pain at a former employer who hired IS majors as devs. The only IS majors that tended hold there own was the ones with CS minors.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#23I've only worked with one bootcamp grad, but I've done a fair bit of hiring over the past 15 years, including a number of junior folks.
My main concern with bootcamp grads is that it is not much of a positive signal. My (admittedly biased and unscientific) sense is that you really have to be hopeless to flunk out. The training period is so short that the assignments are necessarily small and limited in scope, so they don't test any kind of tenacity or the problem solving and lateral thinking required as a professional. Granted, University degrees have this same problem, but there at least for a proper CS degree there is some heavy math and theory and exams which over a period of four years will tend to winnow the field a bit more. Plus, if someone has gone through four years of CS assignments, they should be able to show some kind of programmerly reasoning ability and debugging techniques—if they don't at all I think they are pretty easy to write off, whereas someone who has only been coding for 3 months should not necessarily be written off so quickly because they still may need to pass a few eureka moments.
I remember my first year of CS after having been generally obsessed with computers and fooling around with programming for over a decade in HyperTalk, AppleSoft BASIC, Pascal and even C. There was this moment when it just clicked in my head how code was logic manifest. I know it sounds trite, but there really was this moment where I went from thinking of code as a magic incantation to achieve some result to understanding that code can be anything you imagine, and that you can map your very thoughts to code. There was some transformation that happened from years of curiosity and obsession, and from what I can tell a lot of people never pass that phase of thinking of code as magic incantations. I'm not sure what's necessary to make that leap, but I'm fairly certain a 3-month bootcamp will not be sufficient to draw it out for most people.
The other problem with bootcamps is that they are just too visible and attractive to people looking for a good career. I see parallels to Indian outsourcing attempts I was involved in 10-15 years ago. It was apparent there were a huge number of programmers who had no interest in the craft, but went into the field simply because their parents thought it was a good job. 20 years ago I don't think anybody in the US wanted their kids to be programmers, so if someone showed up looking for a programming job they were already most likely brimming with the requisite curiosity to become a passable programmer (even if they weren't a genius!). With the US economy tanking and startup culture being glorified and mainstreamed I feel like bootcamps are the obvious outlet for people seeking the media-fueled romance of being a bonafide Silicon Valley engineer.
All of this is a bit unfair to bootcamps. They may well be the fastest way to learn, and the curriculum may be top notch, but for me personally it's a negative signal. I would be more impressed with a candidate who saved their money and spent 3 months teaching themselves to code using on-line resources. Perhaps that's unfair, but that's my bias. God I would have killed for the web in 1987. Do you have any idea how much Inside Macintosh (the Mac OS API reference) cost? Or a C compiler for that matter?
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#24Full disclosure: I am a former Wealthfront employee, and am now an instructor at Dev Bootcamp. We hired two DBC grads onto my team while I was at WF, and a third after I left. We also interviewed DBC grads who didn't make the cut.
Obviously I came to DBC because I believe in what they do. My experience as an engineer on the Wealthfront team was that:
1. DBC Grads were incredibly driven, hard workers, who had an exceptional ability to "drink from the firehose" and learn what we needed them to learn rapidly. After seeing my first 9 weeks here, it's clear that _no other kind of person_ can make it through DBC.
2. DBC Grads were very effective communicators. I think there's a lot of value in DBC's "engineering empathy" curriculum.
3. DBC Grads had a solid enough basis in CS fundamentals and web development to be effective immediately as new hires.
Both our DBC hires were adding value right off the bat, and rapidly grew into their role. Wealthfront has a strong mentoring culture, and mentoring had an outsized impact on their ability to grow, because they had already "learned how to learn." To be honest, they were more independent than some fresh CS grads I know. There's no textbook once you're in industry.
We rejected some DBC grads too. Like in all things, there is a spectrum of talent and ability across DBC graduates.
In the end I was impressed enough to leave an incredible team to become an instructor here. Like any junior engineer, graduates of these hacker schools are investments. I happen to think the graduates we produce are particularly good ones.
If you're curious, here's an interview my students did with me about DBC. We talk a fair amount about my experience with our two DBC grads at Wealthfront:
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#25I worked with a Dev Bootcamp grad who had worked at a consultancy of some sort for 8 or 9 months before joining our company.
It was definitely an interesting experience. I've worked with a number of fresh college grads, and I more or less know where they tend to be weak/strong. The dev bootcamp grad was pretty much the opposite of a college grad. He was strong with our specific tools (rails), good development practices (scms, tdd, agilish development), and solid communication skills. However, he was weak with a lot of the stuff you get taught or pick up in college, like programming paradigms, basic algorithms, unix tools, and any domain besides web development.
For example, since he knew only ruby, he struggled a lot with js. I can understand why- when I first learned my second language, I struggled a bit too. Every language after that becomes a lot easier, of course, because you've learnt how to learn a language. Since he hadn't done that yet, it took longer than expected to ramp up.
On the other hand, he was pretty well versed in the rails way to do anything. He was adamant about our test suite, and would argue for good separation of concerns.
If I had to sum it up, I'd say that college gives you intermediate skills in computer science, and basic skills in the practice of software development. You're expected to develop the latter at your first job.
Dev bootcamp, on the other hand, gives you basic skills in computer science, and intermediate skills in the practice of software development. Presumably you're expected to develop the former on your own if you want to succeed as a developer.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#26It depends on the school. Some schools are much more well known and can be much more selective in who they accept. Other schools are just starting out and are trying to find their footing. In general though, I find that the people from these bootcamps follow a pretty standard bell-shaped distribution curve with a few people really standing out, most people being average, and a few people being really underwhelming (relative to other grads mind you). My goal in working with these bootcamps is to find the the people on the far right of these curves.
To that end, I've found that the people I've worked with from these schools are just as capable and talented as anyone from anywhere else. It's just that the company I work for is as selective with them as we are with someone from any other background.
Building a good relationship with the people in charge of the school is key, I think. They want to help their students get good jobs and they also want to build the prestige of their institution. I want to find the brightest students to help solve my engineering goals. Working with the leaders helps us both accomplish our goals at the same time.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#27One thing that I've noticed in interviewing people is that those with a previous STEM background seem to get a lot more out of the programs. I assume it's because they already have an understanding of problem solving & analytical thinking (whether it comes naturally or they were taught it) and so coding bootcamp is just learning a new syntax for their problem solving. One of our best engineers is a Carnegie Mellon EE…
One of our best engineers is a Carnegie Mellon EE grad who did a coding bootcamp, he's an awesome coder.
Is that really surprising? I'd definitely expect an EE grad from CMU to have taken some previous coding course work and to have learned at least a language or two during the course of his undergraduate degree.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#28I've only worked with one bootcamp grad, but I've done a fair bit of hiring over the past 15 years, including a number of junior folks. My main concern with bootcamp grads is that it is not much of a positive signal. My (admittedly biased and unscientific) sense is that you really have to be hopeless to flunk out. The training period is so short that the assignments are necessarily small and limited in scope, so they…
One thing I'd like to add to your comment is that I think quite a few people that enter these boot camps are self taught and just need some molding for entry into the professional world. I did exactly what you mentioned and taught myself ( and continue to), but I also did a small three month for-profit online program that pairs you with a mentor. I did this to tuck in any loose ends in my understanding as well as imbue myself in any cultural assumptions that I was blind to.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#29I've only worked with one bootcamp grad, but I've done a fair bit of hiring over the past 15 years, including a number of junior folks. My main concern with bootcamp grads is that it is not much of a positive signal. My (admittedly biased and unscientific) sense is that you really have to be hopeless to flunk out. The training period is so short that the assignments are necessarily small and limited in scope, so they…
I have encountered a number of people who share your sentiment, that attending a bootcamp is a negative signal. I went through one of these bootcamps after a few years of learning on my own. While it was an awesome experience and I learned a lot, I find it necessary to pretend it never happened - it's as if the years I spent teaching myself and my passion for the subject are undone by association with a bootcamp.
Re: Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?
#30I will say that where I work we appear to have managed to get on a list of "startups to send your resume to" by one or two of these bootcamp shops, and the resumes tend to be severely underwhelming. Here are some of the things that have been negatively affecting my reaction to them (I share in hopes this is useful, not to bash bootcamps or folks that attend them!): ONLY A GITHUB PROFILE It seems pretty clear that the…
This is similar to what I've seen. It is challenging enough being a startup, its even more challenging to try to be a remedial computer science program and get stuff done. What is strange is the exact same thing happened in the late 90's during the first bubble. In that case it was "webmaster" was the new thing and there were these sorts of boot camps that would turn you into a webmaster in just a few short weeks so…
To be fair, learning to code well is HARD and takes a lot of time, and more importantly, practice. Stayin inside coding as a kid was the best decision of my life, career-wise.