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Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

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Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#21

Post by tsenkov »

danbruc wrote: post #9
tejay wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This appears to be an older post, but I think what the original author meant was that hard work alone isn't a sufficient condition for success (I'd argue it is a necessary one, though). The real answer is there probably isn't a sufficient condition for success, but hard work in pursuit of your own goals (rather a manager's) increases the likelihood of a positive outcome. Still, I'd have gone a step further. 'Career'…

Hard work is not important, good results are. That's a very different thing.

Winning the lottery is a "good result", without a hard work.

Moving a pile of dirt from one place to another, every day, is hard work without a purpose.

Working hard (and smart) on problems you are passionate about gives you the best chance at succeeding.

And about impressing someone with your work, I have a rule - impress yourself. :)

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#23

Post by hagbardgroup »

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE.

My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treated his family well enough that my mother still remembers the Christmas parties that the company threw in upstate New York for their genuine human warmth.

When I compare how GE treated my grandfather versus how my father was treated by the companies that he worked for (taking the ambitious, go-getter advice), I am struck by how poorly he was served by both that and the overall cultural structure of the United States. My grandfather survived a Nazi prison camp for the US Government, and his weeks of eating grass soup paid off.

So to people saying that Welch's advice was psychopathic bullshit, I say sucks to you. Grandpa worked 9-5 for Jack, was not a particularly ambitious man, and came out way ahead in return for his loyalty. While surely this did not work for everyone, it did for enough of the people for stories like this to be common.

My perspective is entirely different -- because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres. It is in fact punished, as this writer notes. How exactly can you build a company that lasts for longer than a relative eyeblink when every person is looking out for #1, and expects to be stabbed in the ass by everyone around them?

LinkedIn is a pain in the ass. Propagandizing for yourself to eke out a good living and career hopping all over the country is a pain in the ass. Both activities are tangential to producing profitable work over a long period of time. Every jackass who wants to get a VP position has to be a hot air spewing 'thought leader' now. This is all wasteful activity that defeats the entire economic purpose of firms.

The modern cynicism is corrosive to our long term prospects as a country, even if it is correct individual advice for the current environment. It will not survive, because this country will not survive as a single entity given such broken incentives and cultural mores.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#24

Post by michaelochurch »

mildtrepidation wrote: post #17
michaelochurch wrote: post #10

It's easier to call out bad and outdated advice (Welch's) than to offer good advice, which the OP doesn't. The problem with Welch's advice is that it's what successful people say , not what they do. You should pay attention to what unsuccessful people say and know (they're the ones who know the organization's true character) but what the successful people do . Take knowledge from the losers, but copy the actions (oft…

Somehow you've decided that, despite labeling yourself unsuccessful, people should pay attention to what you say. The only support I see you making for this is citing your IQ, which is meaningless. You obviously believe you're telling people things that work, and the attempt to help is something I'm sure people appreciate. But based on what you're saying here, either you don't follow that advice, you don't understand…

I've had a lot of terrible luck. Some of it was no one's fault, most of it was not my fault. I'll probably be a lot more successful now that I have my shit together. But when things go bad for you, you learn what people really are in a way that the ones with charmed lives never really do.

I suppose I'm lucky insofar as I had my bad luck in my 20s, when it was easier to recover than in one's 50s.

Much knowledge can only be gained through misery and suffering. Since humans are mostly defective, it's rare that a person who hasn't suffered, been betrayed, etc. knows how people actually work.

Additionally, understanding how human organizations work is no substitute for real-time footwork. Ideally, one wants both. I have a wealth of the first (and, unlike Welch, I'm willing to share what I know) but (unlike your garden variety corporate psychopath) I'm not good enough at reading people to develop that "snake sense" for others' weaknesses. In the field, that's also very valuable, and it's something I never developed.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#25

Post by dpweb »

tejay wrote: post #7
sarreph wrote: post #2

There's no real alternative offered here. I understand there's a whole 'open' and 'small' world out there and I can learn lessons from my peers, but if I'm not supposed to be 'working hard for my boss' in the modern corporate world, what am I supposed to be doing to 'get there eventually'?

This appears to be an older post, but I think what the original author meant was that hard work alone isn't a sufficient condition for success (I'd argue it is a necessary one, though). The real answer is there probably isn't a sufficient condition for success, but hard work in pursuit of your own goals (rather a manager's) increases the likelihood of a positive outcome. Still, I'd have gone a step further. 'Career'…

"if you're really good at something, it's pretty easy to get paid (a lot) for it."

This is only true in technology and because of the current market in tech labor and skills (and powerful people are working hard to change that).

It's not true for the musician, or many other passions where the reward has to be the work itself because it's hard to make any kind of living at it.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#26

Post by crazy1van »

michaelochurch wrote: post #10

It's easier to call out bad and outdated advice (Welch's) than to offer good advice, which the OP doesn't. The problem with Welch's advice is that it's what successful people say , not what they do. You should pay attention to what unsuccessful people say and know (they're the ones who know the organization's true character) but what the successful people do . Take knowledge from the losers, but copy the actions (oft…

> Terrible fucking idea. Executives don't see a young grunt trying to work on the big picture as "initiative". (I learned this at Google when I pointed to a superior G+ Games strategy.) They see it as a challenge to their turf. They hit back hard, and they have all the power. It doesn't end well.

You really need to know your manager. Some are very turf conscious like your G+ games person, but many aren't.

Also there is a difference between a new employee going above and beyond on an assignment and a new employee thinking they already know enough to radically change a product's strategy. There are a lot of super smart new employees who think smarts alone makes them qualified to jump into a new job and instantly know better than the people who have been working it for years.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#27

Post by justinmk »

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

> because the US no longer rewards loyalty in either the public or private spheres

The comfort of 1950s US was an accident of the WW2 windfall resulting from our happy position as the creditor for most of Europe. Pointing to that accident as a model for future progress is childish.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#28

Post by gummify »

Jack presents good advice that still is an important part of culture in certain sectors and within certain types of businesses if you want to move up the corporate ladder. He says to work hard but also to work smart, I don't think he's saying number of hours worked or level of brown nosing positively correlates to return on efforts or dollars. You must have a career strategy and not just be a hamster running around a wheel. Work hard at that strategy and whether it means being promoted up the ladder every year in the same company or to deliver on something groundbreaking and then exiting within a couple years or less. In other news, I wonder how Jack and Tim Ferriss would get along.

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#29

Post by cml »

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but I think that Mr. Welch's advice could be read as extremely cynical as well: maybe he's just telling people what they want to hear, which has the added benefit of encouraging (perhaps unwarranted) loyalty in lower-ranking employees. Like a self-serving Socratic "noble lie" for corporate types?

Re: Work Hard You'll Get There Eventually (hint: no you won't)

#30

Post by FD3SA »

hagbardgroup wrote: post #23

The new system is not 'better' than the old system, and is probably significantly worse. While it's true that Welch's advice is no longer valid, it's because the legal, financial, and monetary environment has changed so much since the heydays of GE. My grandfather retired a millionaire after working as a basic GE accountant for his entire postwar life. So as far as he was concerned, GE treated him well, and it treate…

>How exactly can you build a company that lasts for longer than a relative eyeblink when every person is looking out for #1, and expects to be stabbed in the ass by everyone around them?

Exactly, but I believe you have the causal chain reversed. It was the big companies that severed the bond of trust, and the employees who had to adapt to the new free-for-all market.

Neutron Jack eliminated 81,000 jobs in 5 years from GE (1980-1985). This resulted in the remaining employees, quite rationally, being very concerned for their careers. And thus, they began looking for options, and looking out for #1, because they knew they couldn't depend on Jack.

Of course, I agree that it is not productive to constantly be looking for better opportunities, but this is a result of never knowing when a Jack-like CEO is going to lay you off. Big companies started this war, and now they have to live with the consequences.

The startup movement is, for all intents and purposes, a way for talented employees to directly capture some the incredible value they would otherwise have created for big companies. Jack could've given these guys profit-sharing, equity or other incentives to work for him. Instead, he hung the sword of Damocles over their heads.

Elon Musk would've made one hell of an employee for any big corp. Instead, after weighing his options, he realized it would be better to just beat them at their own game.

You reap what you sow, Jack.

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