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A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

nytimes.com

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Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#21
If there is an sea on Enceladus then there will already be microbial life there [0]. Microbes can survive for ages in space [1] and there are plenty of rocks moving from the earth and all of the other planets and moons of the solar system [0,2].

One of the more interesting stories about microbes in space is that some survived on the moon for almost three years inside a camera [3]. It is not 100% certain that the microbes cultured were not from later contamination, but I know from working with them that microbes are really tough and I can believe that they could have survived!

[0] http://users.tpg.com.au/horsts/transpermia.html

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19854226

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reports_of_Streptococcus_mitis_...

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#22

"They found that the moon’s gravity was weaker at the south pole. At first glance, that is not so surprising; there is a depression at the pole, and lower mass means less gravity. But the depression is so large that the gravity should actually have been weaker." They found the gravity was weaker.. but it should actually have been weaker. So is it weaker or stronger?

I think that they mean that they gravity should have been even weaker than it was. * There's a depression -> gravity weaker. * Less of a difference than expected from the depression size -> something denser * Water is denser than ice, and in a known relation -> size/volume of lake.

A bit more on this, from the abstract at http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6179/78:

"We determined the quadrupole gravity field of Enceladus and its hemispherical asymmetry using Doppler data from three spacecraft flybys. Our results indicate the presence of a negative mass anomaly in the south-polar region, largely compensated by a positive subsurface anomaly compatible with the presence of a regional subsurface sea at depths of 30 to 40 kilometers and extending up to south latitudes of about 50°.

And a little more on methodology, from the full article:

"The design of the Cassini spacecraft does not allow radio tracking from Earth during remote-sensing observations. Therefore, only 3 of the 19 flybys of Enceladus completed so far have been used for gravity measurements. In these close encounters, the spacecraft was continuously tracked from ground antennas while flying within 100 km of the moon’s surface, twice above the southern hemisphere (in the flybys labeled E9 and E19) and once over the northern hemisphere (E12). We determined Enceladus’ quadrupole gravity field and degree-3 zonal harmonic coefficient J3 from measurements of spacecraft range-rate.

And further detail on the effects modeled:

"Microwave links between the onboard transponder and ground stations of NASA’s Deep Space Network enabled precise measurements of the spacecraft range-rate. In addition to gravitational forces, our analysis accounts for the main nongravitational accelerations, most notably neutral particle drag exerted by the substantial gas plume formed by the jets of the south-polar region. Flying by the moon at latitudes below –70°, the spacecraft interacts with the plume at distances of up to 500 km from Enceladus’ surface..."

Amazing results. They're flying ~100 km from the moon's surface, while at a distance of 1.3 billion km. And getting very accurate velocities due to the mighty Doppler effect.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#23

If there is an sea on Enceladus then there will already be microbial life there [0]. Microbes can survive for ages in space [1] and there are plenty of rocks moving from the earth and all of the other planets and moons of the solar system [0,2]. One of the more interesting stories about microbes in space is that some survived on the moon for almost three years inside a camera [3]. It is not 100% certain that the micr…

Transpermia seems like a theory rather than a fact. While I think you're probably correct, it's better to be ultra-conservative on questions like this.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt in orbit rendezvous with ISS would be safer and cheaper. It might be safer from planetary contamination standpoint, but complexity of such maneuver would handily offset that. On top of that there is a host of other issues due to the cramped space on ISS. For example: not enough space for proper isolation of sample, not enough equipment to properly study sample, and the fact that limited manpower would be avai…

Eh, I've played KSP, an orbital rendezvous in LEO on your return isn't that hard. If you have enough precision and fuel leftover to start a safe decent, you have enough precision and fuel to dock with the ISS. I'm surprised that we aren't equally worried about contaminating Enceladus with terran microbes.

You don't need any fuel to start a safe descent, except for a tiny amount for course corrections. The atmosphere does all the work.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#25

If there is an sea on Enceladus then there will already be microbial life there [0]. Microbes can survive for ages in space [1] and there are plenty of rocks moving from the earth and all of the other planets and moons of the solar system [0,2]. One of the more interesting stories about microbes in space is that some survived on the moon for almost three years inside a camera [3]. It is not 100% certain that the micr…

Transpermia seems like a theory rather than a fact. While I think you're probably correct, it's better to be ultra-conservative on questions like this.

Of course it is only a theory, but a very plausible one given the frequency of rock transfer between planets and the toughness of microbes that allow them to survive in space for long time periods (both empirical facts).

There is really no way of proving transpermia - even if we to travel to Enceladus and found microbial life there how would we ever prove how it got there.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#26
post #4
post #2

"Dr. Tsou devised a way to capture comet particles and bring them back to Earth for NASA’s Stardust mission and has been suggesting a similar method for a spacecraft that would fly through Enceladus’ plumes and then return to Earth for scientists to examine. The challenges are to make sure that the interesting particles would not break apart, to take precautions that any alien life would not infect Earth, and to fit…

> Why bring it back to earth? Wouldn't it be safer & less expensive to return it to ISS instead, (or is that what's implied) ? No, that would involve a very complicated and expensive breaking maneuver to slow down the spacecraft, not to mention getting in exactly the right orbit to rendezvous with the ISS. It's much, much easier to just the payload sturdy enough to survive atmospheric entry and a crash landing.

Expensive breaking is precisely what they're trying to avoid!

(Sorry, normally I wouldn't nitpick spelling when the meaning is clear, it was just a funny error!)

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#27
post #4
post #2

"Dr. Tsou devised a way to capture comet particles and bring them back to Earth for NASA’s Stardust mission and has been suggesting a similar method for a spacecraft that would fly through Enceladus’ plumes and then return to Earth for scientists to examine. The challenges are to make sure that the interesting particles would not break apart, to take precautions that any alien life would not infect Earth, and to fit…

> Why bring it back to earth? Wouldn't it be safer & less expensive to return it to ISS instead, (or is that what's implied) ? No, that would involve a very complicated and expensive breaking maneuver to slow down the spacecraft, not to mention getting in exactly the right orbit to rendezvous with the ISS. It's much, much easier to just the payload sturdy enough to survive atmospheric entry and a crash landing.

What about crashing it into the moon? Higher cost, but much less chance of earth contamination. We could then check it out with cheap robots.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt in orbit rendezvous with ISS would be safer and cheaper. It might be safer from planetary contamination standpoint, but complexity of such maneuver would handily offset that. On top of that there is a host of other issues due to the cramped space on ISS. For example: not enough space for proper isolation of sample, not enough equipment to properly study sample, and the fact that limited manpower would be avai…

Eh, I've played KSP, an orbital rendezvous in LEO on your return isn't that hard. If you have enough precision and fuel leftover to start a safe decent, you have enough precision and fuel to dock with the ISS. I'm surprised that we aren't equally worried about contaminating Enceladus with terran microbes.

KSP is intentionally a lot easier than actual Earth-based rocketry. Orbital velocities in KSP are much lower than in reality, and because the rocket equation is exponential that makes everything in KSP expenentially easier to do.

Re: A Moon of Saturn Has a Sea, Scientists Say

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transpermia seems like a theory rather than a fact. While I think you're probably correct, it's better to be ultra-conservative on questions like this.

Of course it is only a theory, but a very plausible one given the frequency of rock transfer between planets and the toughness of microbes that allow them to survive in space for long time periods (both empirical facts). There is really no way of proving transpermia - even if we to travel to Enceladus and found microbial life there how would we ever prove how it got there.

If we find DNA based microbial life it could certainly be amazing evidence in favor of transpermia. We would at least compare to DNA on earth and analyze similarities. Even plant and animal DNA are very similar (double helix shape)
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