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Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

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Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#21

Post by cruise02 »

valarauca1 wrote: post #20

To put in more westernized chess terms, this would be like beating a 2100Elo master without bishops. Yoshio is a professional and very skilled, but he hasn't won a major tourniquet since 1989. Really not an achievement, its nice to see Computer Go advancing. A 4 stone handicap between master's is massive. The difference between a 9d (dan) and 1d isn't actually 8 stones. With an 8 stone handicap a 1d will play a 9d of…

A four stone handicap in Go is way less than a four piece handicap in chess.

Also, Crazy Stone is 6d on KGS.

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#22

Post by valarauca1 »

cruise02 wrote: post #21
valarauca1 wrote: post #20

To put in more westernized chess terms, this would be like beating a 2100Elo master without bishops. Yoshio is a professional and very skilled, but he hasn't won a major tourniquet since 1989. Really not an achievement, its nice to see Computer Go advancing. A 4 stone handicap between master's is massive. The difference between a 9d (dan) and 1d isn't actually 8 stones. With an 8 stone handicap a 1d will play a 9d of…

A four stone handicap in Go is way less than a four piece handicap in chess. Also, Crazy Stone is 6d on KGS.

True I edited it down to just bishops. And KGS is very inflated, a 6d on KGS vs. a 6d international professional wouldn't be contest.

The normal conversion I hear is a 3d on KGS is around a 1k on Eastern Servers. Or that's my experience for people who play on KGS and eastern servers. I'm a 4k on KGS, but I know my knowledge is a bit amateur or a South Korean 4k.

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#23

Post by mark_l_watson »

Nice! I spent a lot of free time in the late 1970s and early 1980s working on my Go playing program Honninbo Warrior (played poorly, but was the first commercial Go playing product).

The new Monte Carlo search technique (used by Crazy Stone) basically blows all previous approaches out of the water. I bought the "Championship Go" app for my android phone, it uses Monte Carlo, and plays well.

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#24

Post by cjbprime »

T-hawk wrote: post #12
sp332 wrote: post #2

A note from near the bottom: For the benefit of readers who aren’t necessarily Go players, a four stone handicap means that black (the computer) was allowed to place four stones on the board before white (Ishida) made any moves. This may sound like a lot but, while it is a significant handicap, it’s not really as big as it sounds.

Would it be accurate to say those 4 stones are about equivalent to one pawn in chess? As a back-of-the-envelope calculation, one pawn is 1/43 of your starting material in chess if the king is included as a four-point fighting piece. Four stones in Go comes to 1/45 of your expected endgame material as half of a 19x19 board.

More than a pawn: I think "two bishops" was about right.

The value of each stone (as an ability to stake out territory -- sometimes called the "temperature of the board" in game theory) decreases as the game goes on. A stone in each corner is huge, probably worth about 80pts of potential territory. In the middle game, the temperature might drop from 20pts to 10pts per move. So your averaging method doesn't quite work. :)

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#25

Post by mark_l_watson »

visarga wrote: post #14
ChuckMcM wrote: post #13

Wow, I was not aware that Go programs had gotten this good. That is excellent news. No a bunch of new papers to add to my list to read.

Crazy Stone got 4 stones handicap, I think. It wasn't a level playing field yet.

I have played (in the 1970s) both the Women's World Champion and the National champion of South Korea - I am not going to admit how many stones they gave me and they still won :-)

Four stones is sort of like giving a child a knight off the board starting advantage in chess.

BTW, my older brother taught me Go when I was eight. We played fairly equally for many years, then suddenly within a one year period I was able to give him nine stones, a handicap I have now been giving him for decades. Not saying I am good, just that my brother is a bad Go player :-)

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#27

Post by falcolas »

javanix wrote: post #7

On a semi-unrelated note, is there a decent English-speaking online Go community anywhere? I would like to try my hand at playing but I can't find anything along the lines of FICS, or even a decent-looking client for Android.

You asked for Android, and this is Apple, but it's one of the best mobile go apps I'm aware of:

http://www.smartgo.com/kifu.html

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#28

Post by praptak »

javanix wrote: post #7

On a semi-unrelated note, is there a decent English-speaking online Go community anywhere? I would like to try my hand at playing but I can't find anything along the lines of FICS, or even a decent-looking client for Android.

There's also http://www.dragongoserver.net/ for those who prefer "mail time" games, i.e. ones in the order of 1 day per move, obviously asynchronous. Pretty neat if you find it hard to carve a continuous hour for a synchronous game.

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#29

Post by z0r »

valarauca1 wrote: post #22
cruise02 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A four stone handicap in Go is way less than a four piece handicap in chess. Also, Crazy Stone is 6d on KGS.

True I edited it down to just bishops. And KGS is very inflated, a 6d on KGS vs. a 6d international professional wouldn't be contest. The normal conversion I hear is a 3d on KGS is around a 1k on Eastern Servers. Or that's my experience for people who play on KGS and eastern servers. I'm a 4k on KGS, but I know my knowledge is a bit amateur or a South Korean 4k.

It's roughly the other way around - a 1k on KGS is probably capable of easily holding down 2d on Tygem / Cyberoro

Re: Crazy Stone computer Go program defeats Ishida Yoshio 9 dan with 4 stones

#30

Post by z0r »

javanix wrote: post #7

On a semi-unrelated note, is there a decent English-speaking online Go community anywhere? I would like to try my hand at playing but I can't find anything along the lines of FICS, or even a decent-looking client for Android.

http://online-go.com is a new go server with a nice web interface. It runs acceptably well through the Android web browser if you're just looking to play games. KGS is still a better place to find games and players to talk to, though.
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