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Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

savetheinternet.eu

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#23
On the one hand I think firms would just have to compete on offering as many services as possible. On the other hand I suppose if the offer is "10$ a month for free streaming of all Hollywood movies and free porn, and 10$ extra to get access to some opinions on the internet you might not agree with anyway", many people might opt for saving the 10$.

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#24

I'm disappointed that this site for such an important issue doesn't even seem to work very well when trying to contact your MEP. It doesn't even recognize my country, and then it picks MEPs at random from multiple countries. If they didn't have something very reliable, they could've just showed you a list of countries to select your own, and then pick the MEPs which you want to e-mail (or all at once). Also, these EU…

It's not just that, the colour scheme used on the site is so jarring that it makes reading the content an unpleasant experience (and that's assuming you even take it seriously as it looks almost like a prank site).

In the end, I gave up and read the comments on HN to try and work out what the issue was. And I'm someone who's very keen to keep updated on issues like these, so I can't imagine how many casual visitors they'll lose because of this.

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#25

I'm disappointed that this site for such an important issue doesn't even seem to work very well when trying to contact your MEP. It doesn't even recognize my country, and then it picks MEPs at random from multiple countries. If they didn't have something very reliable, they could've just showed you a list of countries to select your own, and then pick the MEPs which you want to e-mail (or all at once). Also, these EU…

This site lets you choose and call your MEP by country: http://piphone.lqdn.fr/campaign/call2/NetNeutrality-final-ap...

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#26
post #21

Why is not possible to have alternative internetworks?

It is. It is just hard. The SIPRNET is the only big one I am aware of. Plus you can't tweet,email mom, Facebook stalk, or check HN from an alternative network until someone adds that functionality for you.

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#27
This came up on reddit's /r/portugal and I had a look through their points to figure out what was going on. The legislation is here:

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/newsroom/cf/dae/docu...

Their 5 points:

1) We don't want a two-tiered Internet, all data should be treated equally. Article 19 of the European Commission’s Telecoms Single Market proposal must be deleted.

It's a tough article to read but as far as I can tell it says the opposite. That any ISP can operate in any part of the EU.

2) Private companies cannot be judge, jury and police over online content. Article 23.5.a. of the European Commission’s Telecoms Single Market proposal must to be deleted.

23.5.a. just says that one of the few exceptions that allow filtering is "implement a legislative provision or a court order, or prevent or impede serious crimes". That last "or" may be poorly interpreted I suppose and I don't know who gets to say what's a "serious crime". Other than that it seems reasonable.

3) Europe won the Nobel peace prize – The European Commission’s credibility on human rights issues shouldn't be jeopardized by engaging in the same type of internet censorship that Europeans critique elsewhere in the world.

This isn't a demand of any sort, just a political point.

4) The current definition of "specialized service" (Article 2.15) increases costs and risk to internet users, and must be changed or deleted.

I can't really see the problem with this. Once you've set rules that you can't filter/degrade service, letting your users hire specialized services on top doesn't seem out of order. I suppose the risk is that if there isn't enough competition "proper access to Netflix" may become a "specialized" service.

5) Article 23, “Freedom to provide and avail of open internet access,” must replace "shall be free" with "have the right" to protect internet users from online discrimination.

This on I don't get. Maybe in legal-speak this makes a difference. I only went through the rest of this very lightly but it seemed to go in the right direction.

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#29
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're taking this too lightly, to be honest. That's exactly the point of the Internet: it offers arbitrary services. Banning stuff because it could compete with other services you offer is opening the door to the internet being crippled on all ISPs. That's seriously terrifying.

That's my complaint about this site: who's banning what? I just checked, VoIP works on the same coax that my ISP uses to provide telephone services.

It's increasingly the case that internet, tv and telephone services are provided by a single company over a single set of infrastructure. Because those service providers have a vested interest to protect the commercial viability of their own offerings (specifically, the TV and telephone packages), there is an incentive to limit the internet service's viability as a replacement for TV and telephone services. Such limitations allow ISPs to engage in text-book antic-competitive behaviour by directly hindering their competitors, and, arguably, the "specialised services" language would allow them to do just that by treating competitors as a specialised service, and differentiating the service conditions (e.g. by throttling the bandwidth offered).

Additionally, using the specialised service language, services like, say, Youtube, Facebook, Netflix or iTunes can pay ISPs to be treated as a a specialised service, offering a better-than-standard experience (lifted traffic limits, increased bandwidth). Such a treatment is sure to be pretty damn expensive, and raises a very tall hurdle that new entrants in those markets must jump if they want to compete with the incumbents on even ground. This is, once again, highly anti-competitive.

Re: Your freedom online is threatened by an EU proposal.

#30
post #10

The main problem here is ISPs as a bottleneck. Longer term we need to figure out how to bypass the bottlenecks, which seem to be increasingly acting as points of political control and surveillance. Such a project would need to have a legal and technical side to it. On the legal side there would need to be an area of radio bandwidth reserved for public internet. On the technical side you need mesh networking software…

To bypass ISPs we need to democratize the ISPs and decentralize them some more. Perhaps in the future, I could get Internet in France from a German ISP that has solar-powered drones or balloons over France, or a satellite. The longer term goal should be to create meshnets, so we can give Internet to each other. Direct censorship of stuff might not even be the biggest threat, though, but traffic shaping. We could avoi…

The bottleneck is due to the 95th percentile way of billing and the fact big content provider don't buy the bandwidth equally for everyone. Normally you peer (free exchange), if and only if you have almost as much in as out. If you have clearly more input coming to your AS than output, you are supposed to buy your internet transit, else your behaviour is parasitic.

Yes google buys internet transit, but not in Europa, they expect the users to pay for their free services when they are not north american, and they provide the "free VoIP" services this way.

Google, amazon are the problems, they don't assume the cost of their services and make it stand inequally amongst the users. Google is killing the cost model of ISP.

In this condition, how do you expect a sustainable free internet if you destroy the business model of ISP ?

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