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Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

blogs.nature.com

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Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#21

Post by dnautics »

chrisBob wrote: post #20
irollboozers wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would really love to see proof of this claim.

The funding in Japan flows through a senior researcher who organizes the research for an entire department. This is very different from the US where each PI applies to the funding agency (NSF, NIH...). In 2010 I attended a department level conference (~75 people) in Japan and the the Japanese graduate students explained that when you meet with someone for a few days you get to know them and their research, and then w…

this is true in the US too, except without the bath part.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#22

Post by chrisBob »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #13
chrisBob wrote: post #9

Japan has a strange culture: Their scientific funding is based largely on hanging out naked at a hot spring with the guy that controls the budget.

And in US/Europe it would be going to the same parties as the guy who controls the budget. I don't see any difference in substance.

The biggest difference that I see is that women are usually invited to parties. There is a huge gender imbalance in Japanese science research, and I think the culture around funding is responsible.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#23

Post by pcrh »

chrisBob wrote: post #8

Everyone gives Science, Cell and Nature way too much credit. They are flashy, but tend to have less substance than other journals. Their retraction rate is also much higher. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3187237/figure/F...

What I find surprising about this is that the work was apparently conducted by separate groups at Riken, Japan, and Harvard, USA. It would take a fair degree of negligence/incompetence/subterfuge for a basic error such as that proposed to occur (i.e. there were no stem cells produced by this method).

Apparently the paper was in review for 9 months, which suggests at least two back-and-forth discussions between reviewers and authors. If there was that degree of misbehavior suggested, I would probably give the editors and reviewers a pass. Their job is not to detect outright fraud.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#24

Post by ThomPete »

DangerousPie wrote: post #19
baldfat wrote: post #2

Again the people who say Philosophy is dead to science I say UGH learn from history. Philosophy and Ethics are still the heart of progress. How many Scientific papers that were "peer reviewed" have we now learned that the science behind the scientific papers have seriously been lacking. The cost is in the suffering and deaths of patients who didn't get help needed that research would have found if they didn't have to…

I don't understand your argument at all. What does philosophy have to do with any of this? Are you claiming that if more people were to study philosophy, this would make the world more "moral", leading to less scientific fraud? I see things like this as part of the cost of doing more and more advanced research at a fast pace. You are bound to have a few misses, but all in all you still make progress.

Popper, Kuhn etc where laying the groundwork for how to validate phenomena and add facts to our models of the world.

The black swan is a good example of this problem (i.e. what lead to why we try to falsify things.)

Without a discussion about scientific methods no science and therefore Philosophy is important.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#25

Post by ThomPete »

delluminatus wrote: post #15
baldfat wrote: post #2

Again the people who say Philosophy is dead to science I say UGH learn from history. Philosophy and Ethics are still the heart of progress. How many Scientific papers that were "peer reviewed" have we now learned that the science behind the scientific papers have seriously been lacking. The cost is in the suffering and deaths of patients who didn't get help needed that research would have found if they didn't have to…

A scientist would respond: How many ethical theories were accepted by contemporaries, only to later be shown to be flawed? If you want to attribute deaths to bad science, then you must also attribute far more to bad philosophy.

Thats not really fair.

The point I think the Parent is trying to make is. Remember what science is and how it works and why it's useful.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#27

Post by delluminatus »

ThomPete wrote: post #25
delluminatus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A scientist would respond: How many ethical theories were accepted by contemporaries, only to later be shown to be flawed? If you want to attribute deaths to bad science, then you must also attribute far more to bad philosophy.

Thats not really fair. The point I think the Parent is trying to make is. Remember what science is and how it works and why it's useful.

It's perfectly fair. What's not fair about it?

Science is a loose methodology. But scientific institutions are fallible. Scientists are fallible. And the methodology is fallible as well, especially in the short term. The whole point is that even if mistakes are made in the small, progress is made in the large.

I don't really understand the point you (or the parent) are trying to make.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#28

Post by ThomPete »

delluminatus wrote: post #27
ThomPete wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not really fair. The point I think the Parent is trying to make is. Remember what science is and how it works and why it's useful.

It's perfectly fair. What's not fair about it? Science is a loose methodology. But scientific institutions are fallible. Scientists are fallible. And the methodology is fallible as well, especially in the short term. The whole point is that even if mistakes are made in the small, progress is made in the large. I don't really understand the point you (or the parent) are trying to make.

You are cherry picking one part of his argument and claiming that this is what he claims.

He isn't only talking about ethics.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#29

Post by anon4 »

ideonexus wrote: post #6

I'm uncomfortable with the sweeping-generalizations of this comment from the article, but I do think there's some insight to it concerning independent thinking and science. Science is a creative endeavor: Steve Jackman said: "Foreigners have an image of the Japanese as very thorough, detail-oriented, and meticulous. However, my experience in Japan over more than a decade has been just the opposite of this. Things got…

Isn't then the solution to write a manual that tells people precisely how and when to be creative and lays out a protocol for raising issues? One that looks like a very rigid structure, but in fact allows for good creativity.

Re: Call for acid-bath stem-cell paper to be retracted

#30

Post by delluminatus »

ThomPete wrote: post #28
delluminatus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly fair. What's not fair about it? Science is a loose methodology. But scientific institutions are fallible. Scientists are fallible. And the methodology is fallible as well, especially in the short term. The whole point is that even if mistakes are made in the small, progress is made in the large. I don't really understand the point you (or the parent) are trying to make.

You are cherry picking one part of his argument and claiming that this is what he claims. He isn't only talking about ethics.

What is he talking about?
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