Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#21

Post by misuba » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:06 PM UTC

axod wrote: post #10

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

>> "people will abandon them for greener pastures." Developers, maybe some. Customers? not until there is a comparable phone on the market. Which there isn't.

And there won't be, until... developers start developing for something else.

If just ten independent developers with interesting apps ported to another platform (doesn't have to be to Android, but of course I'd prefer that) in a coordinated fashion, they'd get immense press and have some real impact.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#22

Post by TomOfTTB » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:08 PM UTC

9oliYQjP wrote: post #20

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Well we're at risk of defining what is right or fair. I loved my first year philosophy course just as much as the other guy but that's a damn slippery slope to go down :) I will say one thing on this matter though. Companies are amoral. The App Store may prove to be unpalatable, but don't think that some other company is more moral than another because when it comes down to it, morals are irrelevant to companies. It'…

You seem to be trying to have it both ways here. If you believe in a strong regulatory government than you believe companies do need to have some morality. Because the very intention of laws is to uphold the moral standard society has set. In other words a company should ideally not break the law meaning if you believe there should be strong regulations you in turn believe companies should have to operate within the bounds of some kind of moral standard.

Moreover, I’m very libertarian leaning. I DON’T believe in a strong regulatory government. All I’m asking for is the most basic of protections. I don’t have a problem with Apple setting whatever terms they want but they have to (a) lay out the terms and (b) enforce them consistently.

Also, on the warranty, I'd argue the quote you used doesn't apply to the situation in the article. The language specifically says...

"The EULA must provide that, in the event of any failure of the Licensed Application to conform to any applicable warranty, the end-user may notify Apple, and Apple will refund the purchase price for the Licensed Application to that end-user"

But this wasn't a "failure of the Licensed Application" in that the application continued to work fine and had met Apple's requirements to the best of the developers ability to do so.

But again, the question is not “what is legal now” it’s “now that this new concept exists what should we as a society require of it”. That’s the discussion being had. Is what Apple’s doing right and should society allow it and if not what standards should be set so that our future isn’t bogged down by companies acting in the same way Apple does.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#23

Post by mechanical_fish » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:10 PM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

9oliYQjP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're…

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed.

I don't know what society you live in. But my society has Wal-Mart in it.

You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it?

And the App Store is not made from Soylent Green. In the grand list of potentially unfair business practices I doubt this even rates. Compared to what the music industry does to bands every single day, this contract is sunshine and birdsong.

Alas, if you don't like Apple's contract terms you're stuck doing business with their competitors. Fortunately, they're easy to find. One of them is probably clinging to your leg right now.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#24

Post by quizbiz » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:11 PM UTC

I have no intention of asking for a refund. I have no intention of deleting my GV Mobile app.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#25

Post by axod » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:11 PM UTC

misuba wrote: post #21

axod wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "people will abandon them for greener pastures." Developers, maybe some. Customers? not until there is a comparable phone on the market. Which there isn't.

And there won't be, until... developers start developing for something else. If just ten independent developers with interesting apps ported to another platform (doesn't have to be to Android, but of course I'd prefer that) in a coordinated fashion, they'd get immense press and have some real impact.

I don't buy the "People buy the iPhone because it has the app store".

The app store is a nice value add, but it's hardly instrumental in the iPhone success story.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#26

Post by 9oliYQjP » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:11 PM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

9oliYQjP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about the App Store is that it allows small developers to reach huge audiences without a lot of logistical headaches. Little things to brick and mortar stores, like charging the right amount of tax to a customer, are huge problems on the web when you're trying to reach customers across the world. On the other hand, there are definite risks associated with using the App Store and this is one of them. You're…

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Not sure if your comment was updated or I was just too quick to reply the first time, but as to the points you made in your final paragraph, I'm on the same page. I think the right courses of action here are:

1. Call Apple out on the contract clauses. See how they will respond. This specific case points out a derivative scenario they may not have accounted for. When they revoke an app because they feel it is "prudent" to do so, and the developer is left footing the bill.

2. Small iPhone developers should band together and form a guild or union. This guild, like the Writer's Guild, can yield considerable clout. Right now the problem is that most developers cannot afford to pay a lawyer to fight these matters. By teaming up, they could form a unified front and not only deal with Apple via lawyers, but possibly deal with them directly. It's easier for Apple to deal with one spokesperson on behalf of say, 5000 independent developers, than for them to try to deal with even a dozen ad-hoc cases.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#27

Post by TomOfTTB » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:24 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #23

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed. I don't know what society you live in. But my society has Wal-Mart in it. You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it? And the App Store is not made…

Are you a John Mayer fan? I ask because that “Waiting for the World To Change” song has always bugged the heck out of me. I mean, DUDE, you’re a 30 year old millionaire celebrity whining about how you’re powerless to do anything? Come on.

Society is what we make of it and the worst possible excuse for letting an injustice go is because “it’s not like there aren’t other injustices in the world” Also, I think you are unfair to Walmart. I’ve heard of Walmart making almost unreal requirements of their vendors (include little tools with things that need to be assembled, adopt RFID without a price increase, etc…) But in each of those cases they actually MADE A DEMAND. Apple’s not even making demands here they’re just kicking apps to the curb with no explanation.

(You’re probably also being a little unfair to the record companies but that would lead to a debate of what they actually provide to artists and this really isn’t the place)

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#28

Post by jrwoodruff » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:30 PM UTC

axod wrote: post #25

misuba wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there won't be, until... developers start developing for something else. If just ten independent developers with interesting apps ported to another platform (doesn't have to be to Android, but of course I'd prefer that) in a coordinated fashion, they'd get immense press and have some real impact.

I don't buy the "People buy the iPhone because it has the app store". The app store is a nice value add, but it's hardly instrumental in the iPhone success story.

I disagree. I know LOT's of people with an iPod touch that want an iPhone just because they want their apps to access the 'net everywhere, not just wi-fi spots. The iPhone is a game changer, and the app store is absolutely instrumental in the story of it's success.

If it isn't, why is the iPhone tagline "there's an app for that?"

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#29

Post by jsz0 » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:41 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #23

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed. I don't know what society you live in. But my society has Wal-Mart in it. You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it? And the App Store is not made…

The Wal-Mart analogy is perfect. Works on so many levels.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#30

Post by jrwoodruff » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 5:42 PM UTC

mhughes wrote: post #9

jws wrote: post #5

Of course they have to pay the customer refunds. The developers accepted a contract agreeing to refund money in certain circumstances, the circumstance have occurred, it is time for them to uphold their end of the contract. The sales have been rolled back, the customers' money is in the developers account (as sympathetic as "pocket" sounds, if they can carry the money in their pocket then this is about very little mo…

It's not just about the refunds. The real issue is that they deny developers apps and give them no more than an up or down vote. And when you try and talk to somebody, they don't even give you the courtesy of a real conversation. Apple is nothing without its legions of fans. Those fans start with a kernel of developers and tech enthusiasts. You think my mom would have bought an iPhone if her geeky son didn't harass h…

I agree 100% with this. Apple's geek core is at least part of the reason they're growing. It's not easy to convince a barely computer-literate person to leave behind the environment they 'know', but I've converted my wife, my mom, my brother.

This s#@t is leaving a bad taste in my mouth though, and I'm not even a developer.