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Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

antipope.org

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Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#21

Post by MrZongle2 »

sentientmachine wrote: post #18

The question is, which civilization will most thoroughly utilize the superpower that is the internet and getting millions of people to act in unison, as one. We will need new founding fathers to re-write the book on what the most perfect union looks like. Perhaps capitalism is not the best system, considering everyone can instantly know what everyone else is contributing or not contributing.

We will need new founding fathers to re-write the book on what the most perfect union looks like.

Let me be the first to request that of our 21st Century founding fathers (gender-neutral), none of them are from our existing political or entertainment classes.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#22

Post by whyme »

trekky1700 wrote: post #8

I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

There's no such thing as mass surveillance being used solely for either good or evil. At least as long as people are not perfect, which I expect will be forever.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#23

Post by milsorgen »

trekky1700 wrote: post #8

I think super accurate mass surveillance is inevitable. It goes with expanding technological capabilities, both government and civilian. I think the real question needs to be focused at how it's applied, whether it's used solely for good or evil. Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

>Fretting over whether or how it's coming is simply illogical, focusing efforts on making sure it's used properly is the only forward thinking, reality accepting solution.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. If we have an issue I think it would be prudent to examine the entire issue especially the degree and kind of it's coming.

Your willing to make vast assumptions on something that affects the very fabric of our society and I find that quite disturbing.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#24

Post by stretchwithme »

We can avoid it only if we wake up to the real problem.

We don't get to pick who represents our interests. We can only vote for preselected choices. This concentrates power in the hands of a few.

And these are more immune to voter desires and more subject to other forms of manipulation.

Either you exercise your power. Or its up for grabs.

We need proportional representation, at least in the House of Representatives.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#25

Post by rayiner »

zenogais wrote: post #14
rayiner wrote: post #5

It's refreshing to read a level headed article on this situation that brings historical context into the analysis. I think the decentralization of technology point is key and underappreciated. Technology makes dystopia harder to maintain, not easier. In feudal times, someone who wanted to overthrow an oppressive tyrant had the very uphill battle of gathering together a large enough army of soldiers to create an effec…

Not necessarily true. It depends on whether you think technology is a part of the problem or the solution. I would recommend Jacques Ellul's "The Technological Society" for a decent treatment of this point and a fairly convincing refusal of the idea that decentralised technology makes dystopia harder - it's just a different kind of dystopia.

I think technology is neutral. At the end of the day, it's always people that are the problem and the solution. The same technology that allows a despot to oppress people more easily simultaneously makes it easier for a faction to overthrow him.

Consider Hitler's Germany. There were factions within the military that tried to overthrow him, but failed. My assertion is that widely distributed technology makes it easier for factions like that to succeed.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#26

Post by nawitus »

Avoiding surveillance is easy, but it costs money. It turns out most people don't want to pay for it, and the market decides in favour of surveillance. (I'm talking about voluntary surveillance here. Even if there's no voluntary surveillance, governments could obviously still spy on you).

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#28

Post by Zigurd »

mpyne wrote: post #15

Avoiding it is the easy part. The hard part will be maintaining the Open Internet in the face of what Snowden did. He started to force policymakers to realize that a cypherpunk-style completely open Internet is fundamentally incompatible with both network defense needs, normal law enforcement (not to mention the spy agencies that most countries want to run), and even cultural/jurisdictional questions on things like d…

> a cypherpunk-style completely open Internet is fundamentally incompatible with both network defense needs

There isn't a middle ground. Either the people have access to strong encryption, DHTs, cryptocurrency, etc., or we live in a panopticon, a soft cage, a managed illusion of freedom. The toothpaste is not going back in the tube.

The real question is whether we need more than 10% of the military industrial complex we currently have, or whether this is a deadweight, dragging down our economy and destroying freedom.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#29

Post by fleitz »

Sure it's easy to avoid surveillance state dystopia... learn from Winston...

O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished.

He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

Re: Can We Avoid a Surveillance State Dystopia?

#30

Post by Zigurd »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #4

It's not so much that governments have less control over us, but rather that technology has enabled them to be more discreet about it. If you've ever read up on the history of intelligence gathering, psyops and unethical experimentation in the U.S., you'd be shocked by how much civil rights have been violated throughout history, even in the supposed land of the free. However, the old adage holds true: out of sight, o…

You are mostly correct, but pervasive surveillance of police behavior, even when it is entirely controlled by the police department results in deep cuts in the use of force, and of complaints against the police.

Still, that doesn't make me an optimist about "sousveillance."

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