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New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

m.timesofindia.com

21–30 of 57 posts

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#21
post #11
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

> The contents and tone of the article are awful and an affront to science and assume everything will result in Nazi eugenics programmes. Because also the nazi program started by saying "If it's a fact, it's not racism".

Aryan superiority was very much non-scientific and is a long way from any sort of fact. Either way, it's completely tangential. If certain nationalities are more prone to some diseases than others, then it's important to recognize this as it can be used for developing drugs that can help those nationalities directly. Sticking your head in the sand and chanting "race means nothing" doesn't help anybody dieing from a disease. As soon as someone starts actively persecuting people because of the research, then it does become racist however. That doesn't mean that the research is not important and shouldn't be done. It means education needs to improved (still).

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#22
post #11
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

> The contents and tone of the article are awful and an affront to science and assume everything will result in Nazi eugenics programmes. Because also the nazi program started by saying "If it's a fact, it's not racism".

Science is science, and findings in science, can be refuted in a science impartial way. But no new discoveries will ever justify the holocaust, slavery or segregation. Because one thing is the difference in race, another thing is plain murder and racism. But we can blame this, on the inability of humans, to discern things, and make extremes of trivial stuff. I know in a way this new findings will bring new (neo) forms of racism, because that's the way we operate. We tend to elevate our self's, that some how we are better then everyone else, and that in a group, that group has to be better then everyone else.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#24
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

>If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution.

The simple fact diverged doesn't tell us in what ways were they diverged. Bigotry can easily fill the remaining wholes in our knowledge (which are vast) and assume eg. that blacks are more prone to die young etc. Who cares if it needs tons of research into social conditions to exclude it as a factor, when you can just take some biological differences and ascribe stuff to them.

>The contents and tone of the article are awful and an affront to science and assume everything will result in Nazi eugenics programmes

Well, "objective science" is mostly a BS notion in an era of government and corporate grants, paid research, and tons of huge interests and prejudices. Lab results, for any stuff that's not totally trivial, don't speak themselves, they require an interpretative context. That can be either provided by relentlessly searching for the truth by the scientist or by quick copout and career/economic/governmental/social pressure.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#25
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity

Good comment. Hopefully this leads to some thought-provoking material...

rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots.

... Oh. Nevermind.

EDIT: I see that you're new to HN. Please don't write in such an inflammatory style. In addition to being against the rules, it's also ineffective.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#26
This stuff really makes my head spin. I consider myself a rationalist, a Bayesian even. If something is true, I'd like to believe it; if something is false, I'd like to believe it is false.

Whatever is true of race, I would like to believe. Even if it's politically incorrect, or even if it's not, I would like to believe whatever is true.

But I don't know what to believe. There doesn't even seem to be a noticeable leaning in the evidence for one side or the other. Experts in the appropriate fields say 'There is no scientific basis for the concept of race.' Experts in the appropriate fields also say 'Clearly there are racial differences.'

Is it a semantic issue mostly? Are some people just afraid of the inconvenient truth? Or is the other side peddling an 'inconvenient truth' for racists-motivated reasons? I am not coming close to having a grasp on this issue.

I only want to believe that which is true.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#27
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

>If it's a fact, it's not racism.

So many apologists here seem to think that you can just list facts, context-free, in some sort of objective manner. The way facts are presented are almost invariably enabling some sort of value judgement.

For example, if you were to do a study on prison population in the US, you could end up presenting two facts :

> blacks are dis-proportionally present in the prison population

> poor people are dis-proportionally present in the prison population

These are both facts, but the one you choose to present gives a soundbite to somebody. Just because you are so magnificent as to not fall into the correlation=causality trap doesn't mean that you're not enabling racism.

By even presenting the first fact, you are implying that it is a fact worth mentioning to begin with. If you also found out that people who wear hats on Sunday are disproportionately present, would you mention it? presenting the fact shows that you believe the link between the two needs to be investigated in the first place.

We could also go into the whole "black/white is not a race" debate too, but the notion of race (as it is defined in common culture) has no place in many studies. Shared ancestry can be relevant in other studies too, but one of the defining characteristics of racist attitudes is how genetics/ancestry define you so much that it is OK to discriminate based on those factors alone. Enabling that sort of thinking (for very little scientific gain) is rarely worth it.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#28
post #2

If it's a fact, it's not racism. It's not personal. The fact that races diverged thousands of years ago suggest that they are genetically different through evolution. There's a lot to learn from genetic diversity rather than applying the racism badge to it every fucking time and ignoring it to pacify some over-sensitive idiots. This attitude is no better than witch hunts and mandatory religious laws. The contents and…

"If it's a fact it's not racism" is a common misconception of someone who understands neither science nor racism.

The problem isn't the result of some study. In a small part it is the interpretation. The much bigger part is the value judgement.

There can't ever be a value judgement in science. If there is, it's not science.

Now, people do pass judgement across ethnical lines. It's natural because these boundaries are very visible. But it's not scientific ever.

The problem the author wants to address but doesn't understand is that people are finding new underpinnings for racist beliefs, and nobody calls them on their fallacy!

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#29
post #26

This stuff really makes my head spin. I consider myself a rationalist, a Bayesian even. If something is true, I'd like to believe it; if something is false, I'd like to believe it is false. Whatever is true of race, I would like to believe. Even if it's politically incorrect, or even if it's not, I would like to believe whatever is true. But I don't know what to believe. There doesn't even seem to be a noticeable lea…

Racism is not about having a belief about a property. That "Bayesianism".

Racism is defined as making a judgement of value across ethnical boundaries.

"Blacks in the US get sick more often" is not racism, it's a scientific belief with evidence. "Africans are genetically more prone to have bad health" is a belief without enough evidence, which might be fueled by a subconscious judgement.

"We don't need to put an effort into improving African-American Health, because they are disease-riddled anyway" clearly is a value judgement and devoiding a part of the human species of rights the other part enjoys.

Re: New forms of 'racism' arise in science research

#30
post #14

It was never said that all humans where alike and to be handled the same way. You won't give the same birth control methods to male and female individual for instance. When speaking of equality, I think it is implied equality before society: equal rights, same laws, no irrelevant discrimination (I don't know how it works but I guess sellers are partially chosen depending on how they look and how attractive they are).…

The problem with

> She cited new research urging that children be identified based on their genetically predetermined educational abilities and then put in separate schools that could be used to foster different kinds of learning.

is, we already know that constructing social categories based on biological traits is bullshit, simply because the relevant criteria are not given by science. Science can only give a classification of some measure, but it can not reasonably define if the measure is relevant. For an extreme example, even if you get a "obviously relevant" distribution, you have to choose at which values you draw the line.

But lets assume for the sake of the argument, that there is initially no difference in the outcome of the education ( defining this is left as an exercise to the reader), one of the school types will be perceived as better. So it will get more applications, can afford harsher selection criteria and actually become better. At which point the better school will probably get more resources, and the cycle continues.

So calling "racism" on non-biased factual evidence is harsh. Assuming that non-biased factual evidence includes citations to the roughly 100 years of research how oppressive structures develop. (These 100 years of research are usually called feminism.) But we know that precisely these footnotes are the first to be dropped.

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