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Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

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Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#21

Post by potatolicious »

mathattack wrote: post #6
walls wrote: post #2

> ... see the violence and degradation out there? This is the world that you have created ... No, that is the world that the current tenants have created. These are the people here to turn it around.

If I were trying to encourage folks to not invest in local real estate, I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted to destroy the tax base supporting my school, I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted to drive my coffeshop or cheeseburger stand out of business I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted my theater to be empty, I wou…

I agree with the gist of what you're trying to say, but:

> "If I wanted to drive my coffeshop or cheeseburger stand out of business I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town."

Yes, you really would. One of the chief problems with gentrification (where "problem" is highly subjective) is that the incoming population sometimes doesn't want the businesses you already have.

Your local cup-o-joe place is going to shut down in favor of organic, fair-trade coffee that comes with a brochure (and 5x the price). Your local cheeseburger stand is going to shut down in favor of a quinoa kale salad stand (and 5x the price).

Edit: The oxymoron of Bay Area gentrification on the other hand is that the protesters don't really want the old hood back, they want first-wave-gentrification-hood back. Nobody really misses the cheapass coffee stand, nobody really misses the cheapass taco stand. They miss that little temporary state where the artisanal coffee shop opened and the organic grocery got started but before the real rush came in search of it.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#22

Post by drob »

sliverstorm wrote: post #14
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #8

Gosh, wouldn't the world be such a nicer place if society solved its housing problems by building more housing with a higher density instead of having these pointless zero-sum dominance contests? But of course, that would defeat the whole purpose. The point is not to build more housing, it's to have a zero-sum dominance contest and come out on top!

The point is not dominance contests, the point is people want to keep their low density housing even as housing costs rise in their city. Imagine if you lived in Hawaii, and the island was just starting to become popular because it is so nice. Everyone was moving there, and rents were going through the roof because there is nowhere to expand. What you want isn't Manhattan sky-rises on your little island; you want che…

In general, I agree that building up can harm the character of a neighborhood, but this is often presented in the context of SF and Oakland as a false choice.

The difference between skyrocketing prices and stable ones is on the order of 3,000 new units per year, not 30,000. This is a goal we can hit with skyrises restricted to one part of town, or with three family homes in place of a lot of single family homes, or in a number of other tasteful ways.

It's not as if 500,000 techies are moving to Oakland at once. It's a slow trickle, but, with a fixed supply, prices spike.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#23

Post by sliverstorm »

fourstar wrote: post #20
sliverstorm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't really make computers, printers, or word-processors.

Actually, they do (Google Docs, Chromebook?), but you're totally missing the point.

Ok, you're right on Docs, but they don't make Chromebooks.

Not missing the point, just thinking the point is not very strong.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#24

Post by dkl »

This is the wrong fight. Protester vs. Googler is a distraction. There are other, root causes of the problem that make the protesters angry, and doing this might relieve some frustration for them, but it does no good, and arguably does harm to their cause and gets us no closer to real solutions.

Back in the 70's, Berkeley, a close neighbor, decided that rent control was the answer. It turns out that it helped, but it had too many unintended consequences (people living in $200 nice apartments for decades when they made really good money, thus completely defeating the purpose of rent control).

So, rent control didn't work, at least not in the way it was done in Berkeley. Did it work in SF? Doesn't seem to have. NYC? I hear nightmare stores of their issues.

It's the dialog of the greater problems we need to have, not these stupid little fights.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#25

Post by sliverstorm »

mc32 wrote: post #19
sliverstorm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not dominance contests, the point is people want to keep their low density housing even as housing costs rise in their city. Imagine if you lived in Hawaii, and the island was just starting to become popular because it is so nice. Everyone was moving there, and rents were going through the roof because there is nowhere to expand. What you want isn't Manhattan sky-rises on your little island; you want che…

Ah, yes, let's have our 50's idyll back. That's what we need. The world obviously has not changed a bit since, so the neighborhoods don't need to meet any change.

I didn't say it was a tenable position, just pointing out what I believe the complaint is actually about.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#26

Post by sliverstorm »

dkl wrote: post #24

This is the wrong fight. Protester vs. Googler is a distraction. There are other, root causes of the problem that make the protesters angry, and doing this might relieve some frustration for them, but it does no good, and arguably does harm to their cause and gets us no closer to real solutions. Back in the 70's, Berkeley, a close neighbor, decided that rent control was the answer. It turns out that it helped, but it…

Abolishing rent control might be the big-picture answer, but in the micro- scheme, the protestors will never rally for that.

They really don't have a winning play that I can think of; the spat is basically just them lashing out at the only thing they can think to lash out at. They are in the unenviable position of living at low cost in low density housing in a locality that is shooting up in value, and all they can do is attempt to forestall the inevitable.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#27

Post by fennecfoxen »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #8

Gosh, wouldn't the world be such a nicer place if society solved its housing problems by building more housing with a higher density instead of having these pointless zero-sum dominance contests? But of course, that would defeat the whole purpose. The point is not to build more housing, it's to have a zero-sum dominance contest and come out on top!

Ah yes. In both New York and San Francisco there are fun and exciting zero-sum dominance games, combined with the overhanging threat that some communist like Bill de Blasio might get elected and decide to take away your future rental income by tightening the rent control regime. And people wonder why the rent is too damn high.

Not sure which city has it worse today. Of course, in New York in the sixties and seventies, over a third of the apartment buildings in Harlem were simply abandoned and left to rot, and the Bronx was burned; I'm not aware of similar destructiveness in San Francisco (notwithstanding even the Japanese internment which replaced Japantown with the abominable public housing in the modern Fillmore and Western Addition).

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#28

Post by owenjones »

potatolicious wrote: post #21
mathattack wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were trying to encourage folks to not invest in local real estate, I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted to destroy the tax base supporting my school, I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted to drive my coffeshop or cheeseburger stand out of business I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town. If I wanted my theater to be empty, I wou…

I agree with the gist of what you're trying to say, but: > "If I wanted to drive my coffeshop or cheeseburger stand out of business I would try to scare Googlers and Facebookers out of town." Yes, you really would. One of the chief problems with gentrification (where "problem" is highly subjective) is that the incoming population sometimes doesn't want the businesses you already have. Your local cup-o-joe place is go…

Anecdotal story time:

I lived in a rough neighborhood in Philly probably at the beginning of the first wave of gentrification in that area. Our house was a recent rehab, there were several houses next door that were completely vacant. We would frequent a terrible, dirty, cheap hoagie (or sub for you non-Philadelphians) shop owned by an immigrant family. I was always worried that they would get displaced by the incoming 2nd generation of gentrifiers.

Instead they rehabbed their business and now serve expensive sandwiches made with organic ingredients and have a large selection of pricey craft beers. It's still owned by the same family.

Now I'm not saying that the gentrification process isn't destructive to a neighborhoods culture, but I don't think it has to be this way.

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#29

Post by acchow »

adamnemecek wrote: post #13
StavrosK wrote: post #10

Can someone enlighten me as to what a Google bus is? Googling it doesn't shed any light...

It's a bus shuttle service for Google employees which takes them to work. It has become some sort of symbol of the socio-economic divide between tech employees and the rest of society in the Bay area.

Many companies in the peninsula and south bay also run these free shuttle services - Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, etc. For whatever reason, they've all been lumped together as "Google buses".

Re: Google Bus Protesters’ Manifesto: ‘Get Out of Oakland’

#30

Post by fennecfoxen »

dkl wrote: post #24

This is the wrong fight. Protester vs. Googler is a distraction. There are other, root causes of the problem that make the protesters angry, and doing this might relieve some frustration for them, but it does no good, and arguably does harm to their cause and gets us no closer to real solutions. Back in the 70's, Berkeley, a close neighbor, decided that rent control was the answer. It turns out that it helped, but it…

> NYC? I hear nightmare stores of their issues.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx is burning.

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