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Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

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Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#21

Post by aroch »

sp332 wrote: post #19
aroch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you genuinely suggesting that every degree should have a 1:1 (or thereabouts) distribution of male and female graduates?

Not necessarily, although it does worry me that the ratio is declining. Specifically, computer-related fields make more than average amount of money, so getting women into tech would help reduce income inequality and associated issues in our society. But here my specific point is: tech fields would be better off with more women!

Why would the tech field be better off with more women?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#22

Post by ppprop »

pessimizer wrote: post #20

There's no connection between the headline and the article, which not only doesn't examine the results of any women-only initiatives, but only mentions a single example (that it seems to approve of.) >But there’s something wrong when we treat half the population like a minority or special interest group. There's also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too. We remediate…

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack."

Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#24

Post by velis_vel »

Scienz wrote: post #6

It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, "Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are." The healthy thing…

> It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone.

If two people are running in a race, and one of them has been running the past 4 miles with a 50-pound weight on their back, taking the weight off isn't going to make the race fair. You've either got to give them some kind of help or put a weight on the other person's back.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#25

Post by sp332 »

ppprop wrote: post #18
sp332 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably not true. The money is pretty good, for one thing :) The ratio used to be higher in the USA, and it's still higher in some other countries. To be specific, it seems like boys are encouraged to go into tech while girls are not, which has a few effects. The first is that girls don't really consider tech at all: it's not that they consider and discard it, they just don't think of it. The other is that mo…

"it seems like boys are encouraged to go into tech" Please stop encouraging this lie. I've never been encouraged to go into tech, and I'd venture a guess that most people here weren't either. As a matter of fact, for me it was quite the opposite, because every time I was fiddling with a computer, I was told to "stop playing games" and do something "worthwhile".

Even so, it's worse (on average) for women. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2817708

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#26

Post by sp332 »

aroch wrote: post #21
sp332 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily, although it does worry me that the ratio is declining. Specifically, computer-related fields make more than average amount of money, so getting women into tech would help reduce income inequality and associated issues in our society. But here my specific point is: tech fields would be better off with more women!

Why would the tech field be better off with more women?

Computing is a very young field. It's well on its way to infiltrating our everyday lives, but it's incredibly underdeveloped. Leaving women out of the process of creating the world we're going to live in seems like a really bad idea.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#27

Post by undoware »

Another oft-overlooked problem with women-only spaces is that they tend to put enormous pressure on the litmus, namely, "is so-and-so a woman?" This tends to screw over people like me (trans).

Now, I know that's not front page news -- there are how many of us? -- but if you care about things like wheelchair ramps and braille, you care about how structural decisions affect the ability of minorities to access a space.

In this case, the minority is being kept out by a conceptual barrier rather than (say) a pre-war flight of stairs, but it still really really sucks to be that minority.

Just another consideration. I'm actually undecided if inclusive, well-managed women-only (or _-only, where _ is a minority of your choosing) spaces are the best approach to the (serious) problem, but I know that some people benefit greatly from such spaces. So it's a question for sociology, really, not hand-waving debate (is there a way of preserving the benefits of these spaces while being more inclusive? what are the supposed benefits? How significant? For whom?)

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#28

Post by vezzy-fnord »

sp332 wrote: post #11
montage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its because women down't want to take Computer Science?

That's probably not true. The money is pretty good, for one thing :) The ratio used to be higher in the USA, and it's still higher in some other countries. To be specific, it seems like boys are encouraged to go into tech while girls are not, which has a few effects. The first is that girls don't really consider tech at all: it's not that they consider and discard it, they just don't think of it. The other is that mo…

This is highly relative and culturally dependent. The older generations (at least the ones that weren't already exposed to earlier computing, AKA the majority) usually have idealized and regressive views of their youth, idolizing the "good ol' days" that never were.

In turn, as they see the massive proliferation of computing, they tend to look at it from a superficial perspective: "Children playing their silly computer games and not getting out, as was back in my day." No matter how much you debunk their arguments, the inertia still sticks and you're often perceived as socially challenged.

So no, boys are not necessarily encouraged to go into tech. Some are, surely. Often for monetary motivations. But a lot are guided by their own passion without outside encouragement, excluding their online peers with likeminded interests.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#29

Post by daleharvey »

The main quote that sticks out for me is 'Sure, and the flood of educated, successful women will eventually take care of that.'

The plural of anecdote isnt data, because some people have managed to find success doesnt change the fact that women are leaving this fairly hostile field in droves.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#30

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

montage wrote: post #8
sp332 wrote: post #4

If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.

Maybe its because women down't want to take Computer Science?

Posted separately: "In another report, in 2013, 41% of college seniors that elected majors in Physical Science were women. Yet, only 18% of those who chose computer science or engineering were women. It seems they'd be equally capable in chemistry and physics as in computer science and engineering. But their major choices indicate it is not about ability and something else is going on: http://www.directemployers.org/2012/08/16/the-college-class-.... "

This indicates that women want to take computer science and engineering to a lesser degree than the other physical sciences. And it appears to be a matter of choice.

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