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The spiral of learning

sdqali.in

21–30 of 33 posts

Re: The spiral of learning

#21
post #12

The energy and interest you have is a tremendous positive. Don't take it for granted. It's something to nurture. What exactly is making you feel bad - what are you thinking when you have that feeling? i.e. what thought is stopping you and why is that bad? [OK, I'm guessing in the following - you'll find the true answer in the above questions] You say you feel bad because of a lack of mastery, but what level of master…

Some time ago there was a post on HN about the difference between a system and goal driven behavior. A system driven behavior applies a strategy over and over endlessly with improvement at each iteration. The goal driven behavior is a sprint based evolution.

What the OP describes is a system which he acknowledges improves his expertise in the studied knowledge.

My opinion is that system has the advantage over goals in that it is an automatic and permanent drive to stick to some rule. It can be learning, exploring new ideas, do fitness, healthy food, keep a good weight, etc.

Goals require a boost of effort and focus wich can only last for a limited duration. You feel good if the goal is achieved and bad if not.

If you work with goals and sprints, there is a high risk of burnout. So better go into system mode for the long run.

The change of topic of interest is something I saw my self and was also puzzled about. I attribute this to some "fatigue" of the brain where it's learning capacity is kind of saturated. Changing topic of interest, changes the neurons and connections in play which let some of them to rest and activate others. Learning is also a matter of repetition and pruning details. You get this by switching back and forth between topics and forgetting the details in between.

Another benefit of having different topic of interest is that at some point we will make the connections between them. We'll use the knowledge gained on one topic on the other. This is powerful and by the combination of topics explored it will also make you most probably unique.

Re: The spiral of learning

#22
post #9

If you zoom out, it looks like you are really only "spiraling" within or two (relatively) niche topics: Newly Popular Programming Languages and Understanding/Using Data With Computers. Maybe you need to broaden your horizons a bit to find something that truly interests you and dramatically increases the things you can do as an engineering/scientifically-minded person?

Any suggestions? I would love to try out some new things.

Re: The spiral of learning

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why Clojure instead of F# or more advanced C#?

Because it's Microsoft technologies locked into a Microsoft stack. And before people start chiming in about Mono: Good luck selling that idea in a large bureaucratic enterprise environment. For all the hassle involved you're better off sticking to something that runs on a JVM.

That's why I suggested it - the parent said they were already in a MS shop, there'd be significantly less resistance with staying on the same stack.

Re: The spiral of learning

#24

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are you throwing yourself at all these technologies? Usually I will only exert effort to learn a new technology when it makes solving a particular problem easier. The focus here being on the word "problem". That's where I find I get the enthusiasm to learn something or finish that I started, because the problem is interesting or useful.

I recall that Feynman had some great quote about this. Basically, if you stay observant and studious, then you can try each bit of new information against the problems you already have, and you gain useful insights as a happy side effect of learning for fun.

Re: The spiral of learning

#25
So cool! You are describing me! :-)

I think there are only two things.

1.) You shouldn't feel bad about it, and now you are realizing that it's an overall upwards spiral after all, you probably don't feel so bad about it! :-)

2.) You forget to include a lot of other things. What about sporting activities, or social activities. There was another HN post on "investing time", that explains that concept. I can tell you my spiral is way bigger. And especially Wikipedia I see as a big corner stone of learning things. It's one of the fastest ways to get a feeling for what the Bellman equation is, or convex optimization, or the different notions of consciousness, or the axiom of choice in set theory, or a morphism in category theory, Feynman diagrams, or a renormalization group, just to list a few things I've checked in 2013. I bet you could follow my intellectual spiral by the specificity of topic terms I check on Wikipedia. :-)

The world is a wonderful place, there is so much to discover! You will never be done. It's great to not just accept that, but to appreciate it!

Re: The spiral of learning

#26

Here's how I "solved" this in myself: I use the streak feature on github. I work through books and projects, and just push them forward 20-30 minutes a day, every single day. Since starting in March, I've read and done the examples/homework for: Let Over Lambda, F# Programming, Clojure Programming, PLAI, and I'm almost done the second chapter of SICP. I've prepared and given a meetup talk, invented some neat stuff, a…

Are you actually committing code every day, or do you somehow represent non-code related progress (e.g. reading a programming book) in a repo?

I'm really committing code everyday. I'll commit the exercises, or if there are no exercises, I'll type up my learnings as a comment, and I'll try to write an example of what it was I was trying to learn.

Re: The spiral of learning

#27
post #3

I used to be in the exact same position. Switching between different languages, paradigms, frameworks helps immensely in narrowing down you're area of interest. I spent a significant amount of time playing with python, tried thinking "pythonically" and using it as my side-project language. But after about a year I never got comfortable, maybe it was the mature community surrounding the language or its opinionated nat…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6990935

Would appreciate your feedback on that!

Re: The spiral of learning

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually committing code every day, or do you somehow represent non-code related progress (e.g. reading a programming book) in a repo?

I'm really committing code everyday. I'll commit the exercises, or if there are no exercises, I'll type up my learnings as a comment, and I'll try to write an example of what it was I was trying to learn.

Gotcha, thanks for the additional info. I might give this a try. I like how your approach requires some active work in order to check a day off, and how it automatically gives you a history of what you've done each day. I've tried the "Jerry Seinfeld calendar" approach, but it's a bit too easy to get lazy or cheat when your only sign of progress is an "x" on a calendar with no real evidence of work attached to it.

Re: The spiral of learning

#29
post #21
post #12

The energy and interest you have is a tremendous positive. Don't take it for granted. It's something to nurture. What exactly is making you feel bad - what are you thinking when you have that feeling? i.e. what thought is stopping you and why is that bad? [OK, I'm guessing in the following - you'll find the true answer in the above questions] You say you feel bad because of a lack of mastery, but what level of master…

Some time ago there was a post on HN about the difference between a system and goal driven behavior. A system driven behavior applies a strategy over and over endlessly with improvement at each iteration. The goal driven behavior is a sprint based evolution. What the OP describes is a system which he acknowledges improves his expertise in the studied knowledge. My opinion is that system has the advantage over goals i…

Sounds like a fair summary, but you haven't addressed what (I believe) is the key issue: OP feels bad.

  pain [...] consistently high [...] don’t have the energy or enthusiasm
I think a huge turn off for "goal-setting" is that corporations do it, and also that they do it for the purpose of productivity. However, I'm not suggesting it for productivity, but for satisfaction. The satisfaction of completely something. Of climbing the mountain, completing the quest, bringing the elixir back, solving the problem, creating something new. I'm not saying one "should" do it, I'm saying it's a way to feel satisfaction, instead of pain.

The key idea here is that a goal not something to strive for, but a limit. Not to force you on, but to let know when you have accomplished something - when to stop! Now, if you're a perfectionist, you may say, "but there's so much more! I've barely scratched the surface. I've done nothing! I'm not worthy!"

However, if you had a goal, and you can remember how it looked when you set it (that it did seem challenging), then when you reach it, you can compare where you were, and where you are now. And you are forced to acknowledge the fact that you have accomplished something.

This gives a flood of satisfaction, like it or not.

Now, turning to "sprint" vs. "system". Firstly, I stressed that the goal must be doable. There's minimal risk that you can't complete it, if it is "doable". And if it's too hard, pick a smaller one.

Note also that you can shift topics between goals, just as you can with a system. I'm talking about small goals, not huge overreaching ambitious goals. Baby steps - but steps nonetheless!

Sprints seem very compatible with human psychology: movies, books and music usually consist of alternating tension and release. There's a series of difficult obstacles, not just one, but a series of problems and solutions. People really respond to this.

Curiously, it seems that literal sprints (i.e. running) are also much better for building fitness than consistent paces. And they even have "sprints" in some agile methodologies (not sure if that counts for or against my argument...).

Finally, there's absolutely a magic in programming, that you code something... and something happens! It's a child-like thrill that (in my opinion) it is absolutely crucial to respect and preserve, especially as ones goals become ambitious and abstract. Fred Brooks talks about the "sheer joy of making things" - and compares us both to a child making mud-pies and to God creating nature. (just found an excerpt online: http://cs.calvin.edu/books/processing/references/brooks/myth...)

I would guess that, evolutionarily, the human body and mind is adapted to sprints - and this is what makes goals feel so satisfying to us, just as we enjoy food, water etc. The "system" approach makes logical sense, and what you say about it seems true. It's just that you haven't addressed how it engages with human motivation (but assume it is "an automatic and permanent drive") - which is the issue OP is struggling with.

Lastly - I think OP's personal solution will actually come from the thoughts he has when he feels that pain. Part mistaken, part profound - only OP will know which is which. I don't claim my suggestion is right for OP, just adding another perspective.

Re: The spiral of learning

#30
I am in exactly same situation.

The main problem with "the spiral of learning" is the wasted energy required to switch tasks.

If I could just stick with one thing until I mastered it, I would be much more efficient. Trying to go back to things I haven't done in a while requires a long period of time for re-familiarization with material I already used to know.

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