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Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#21

Post by pc86 »

TillE wrote: post #10
salient wrote: post #6

I could already imagine a joke about American cops sounding something like: - Friend: "Have you heard the news about the Iceland police killing a man for the first time?" - American cop, confused: "What do you mean? The first one today?" It also reminds me of this story: http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-police-used-onl... German police shot 85 bullets against people in the whole year , while American cops…

A few weeks ago I was reading in a local paper (Berliner Morgenpost, I think) about how the police in Berlin had shot an armed person in the leg, thereby succeeding in arresting him without any further injury. Made me quite happy, because I was reminded of all the Americans who vehemently insist that shoot to kill is the only option ever, even if the person only has a knife.

(Un?)fortunately it usually is the only option from the point of view of the American judicial system. I work with police officers on a fairly regular basis in a professional context, although I am not employed by any government or police/security force. It’s a fairly common though among laymen that shooting to wound is almost always preferable to shooting to kill. Legally, it almost never is.

The way it was explained to me when I asked the very same question (I don’t necessarily agree, just offering this officer’s viewpoint): discharging a firearm is a deadly act, which always carries with it potentially deadly consequences. It should only be done to save a life, whether yours or someone else’s. The problem is that if you shoot without the intent to kill, you’re saying that you weren’t really in fear for your life, you were just stopping a lesser threat.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#22

Post by dragonwriter »

jasonlotito wrote: post #5
toomuchtodo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how often does this happen: "Police regret this incident and would like to extend their condolences to the family of the man," Icelandic police chief Haraldur Johannessen told reporters.

All the time? We've just become too cynical to believe it, or pay it much mind.

> All the time?

Examples?

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#23

Post by bowlofpetunias »

Pxtl wrote: post #9

"first time someone has been killed in an armed police operation " emphasis mine. As much as Iceland seems like a lovely place, I'm sure officers there have killed people in the line of duty before and it's more just the "armed police operation" that represents the difference.

Pathetic.

Seriously, I've encountered these kind of denialist reactions all over the place, and it so pisses me off.

It's not normal for cops to shoot at people in any civilized country ("not normal" as in "national news if it happens"), and for a country the size and nature of Iceland it's perfectly plausible (not to mention simply true) that this is the first time someone was killed by the police.

The ultra-violent American way of policing is the aberration here, not Iceland.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#24

Post by drcube »

Loughla wrote: post #14
TillE wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few weeks ago I was reading in a local paper (Berliner Morgenpost, I think) about how the police in Berlin had shot an armed person in the leg, thereby succeeding in arresting him without any further injury. Made me quite happy, because I was reminded of all the Americans who vehemently insist that shoot to kill is the only option ever, even if the person only has a knife.

It's not that shoot to kill is the only option, ever. It's that center-body-mass is the largest target to shoot at, and therefore the safest to shoot at in a public area. Safest for everyone except the one being shot at, that is. God, does that make sense? It's hard to explain that. You want the largest part of the bad-guy to catch the bullet, to make sure the people around him don't. Therefore, shooting at the (rela…

Not only that, but bullets aren't magic body vaporizers. If you shoot the guy in the right hand, he can still shoot you back with his left. Firing center mass has the best chance at stopping the threat, both because it's the largest in area and because the most important organs are in there.

And you may need to hit center mass a few times before they actually stop, so don't get cute trying to shoot off fingers when innocent lives are on the line. Which is the only time it is acceptable to shoot anyone, ever.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#25

Post by scarletham »

Pxtl wrote: post #9

"first time someone has been killed in an armed police operation " emphasis mine. As much as Iceland seems like a lovely place, I'm sure officers there have killed people in the line of duty before and it's more just the "armed police operation" that represents the difference.

> The gunman who died during a police shootout in Reykjavík this morning was the first person to die from a police shot in Iceland

I assume you could argue that this does not include police killing people by beating them or running them over with their cars, but I'd say we're safe.

[1] http://www.icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_i...

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#26

Post by dopamean »

salient wrote: post #6

I could already imagine a joke about American cops sounding something like: - Friend: "Have you heard the news about the Iceland police killing a man for the first time?" - American cop, confused: "What do you mean? The first one today?" It also reminds me of this story: http://www.thewire.com/global/2012/05/german-police-used-onl... German police shot 85 bullets against people in the whole year , while American cops…

> The rapid rise of militarized SWAT teams that attack people in their homes even for minor offenses is also very scary.

America is a country where the right to bear arms is held as sacred by many. It is a country with a lot of heavily armed people. It is a country with a lot of well trained, heavily armed people. Police response over the years has evolved to meet the challenges posed by a well armed civilian population. The number one priority for police forces anywhere in the country is to not get hurt followed closely by apprehending any suspects. If you believe your suspect may have assault rifles and your priority is to not get hurt then your response will be something larger than assault rifles.

It's kind of insane to think that this is considered normal in developed country.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#27

Post by gaius »

drcube wrote: post #18
TillE wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few weeks ago I was reading in a local paper (Berliner Morgenpost, I think) about how the police in Berlin had shot an armed person in the leg, thereby succeeding in arresting him without any further injury. Made me quite happy, because I was reminded of all the Americans who vehemently insist that shoot to kill is the only option ever, even if the person only has a knife.

No. Police aren't Annie Oakley. Chances are, they wounded the suspect while trying to kill. In a life or death situation (which is the only time it is acceptable to shoot a person), nobody has time to make trick shots. If the target deserves to die, aim center mass. If not, don't shoot at all. Imagine if the cops tried to "shoot to non-fatally disable" someone who didn't deserve to die, but killed him anyway? That wo…

Tell that to Jean-Charles de Menezes. He was shot 7 times in the face from 6 inches away after a cop had wrestled him to the ground. That cop went on to kill again.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#28

Post by [deleted] »

pi-rat wrote: post #20
heydenberk wrote: post #16

Before you extrapolate anything about Iceland to a larger country (say, the United States), remember how tiny it is. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=the+population+of+icela...

Still, first Police killing ever, pretty impressive that the record held so long, even if they are only 332000.. err.. 331999 people.

[deleted]

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#29

Post by mixmax »

Pxtl wrote: post #9

"first time someone has been killed in an armed police operation " emphasis mine. As much as Iceland seems like a lovely place, I'm sure officers there have killed people in the line of duty before and it's more just the "armed police operation" that represents the difference.

While I don't know the facts it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the police has never killed anyone in Iceland. It's a small and peaceful country.

I'm from Denmark, which is culturally fairly close to Iceland and we still talk about the riot in 1993 where the police fired 111 shots in the most violent encounter with rioters since the second world war (noone was killed or seriously injured). We're a country of 5 million and we have less than one person a year that gets shot to death by the police. In Norway they're right now discussing whether the police should even be allowed to carry weapons.

If you're American I can understand your disbelief, since it's an extremely violent country, but as a scandinavian it seems quite believable.

Re: Icelandic Police kill someone for the first time.

#30

Post by vijayr »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #23
Pxtl wrote: post #9

"first time someone has been killed in an armed police operation " emphasis mine. As much as Iceland seems like a lovely place, I'm sure officers there have killed people in the line of duty before and it's more just the "armed police operation" that represents the difference.

Pathetic. Seriously, I've encountered these kind of denialist reactions all over the place, and it so pisses me off. It's not normal for cops to shoot at people in any civilized country ("not normal" as in "national news if it happens"), and for a country the size and nature of Iceland it's perfectly plausible (not to mention simply true) that this is the first time someone was killed by the police. The ultra-violent…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforce...

so far, in 2013

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