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Hordes Of Novices

blog.8thlight.com

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Re: Hordes Of Novices

#21

Post by xradionut »

scrabble wrote: post #10
henrik_w wrote: post #6

The problem with mentoring programmers is: who is a good mentor? Looking back at when I started coding, very few of the senior people there would not have been good mentors. They simply weren't good enough. They would have taught me the wrong things. Also, of course we need more good developers. The problem is that there aren't enough good people to be found (this is not a problem of too few places where you learn to…

Yes. There's also difficulty in finding mentors. There are sites that pop up claiming to offer software mentorship, but most seem to be just people who are willing to help you with an issue you're having with your code. That is not a good mentor-protege relationship.

There's also a problem finding decent students/coworkers that listen. I don't know how many times I've made suggestions and recommendations, just to be ignored.

I co-lead a local programming user group and we commonly help people. Frequently we encounter people that want us to fix the bug in one line of code and don't want help in fixing the structure, the function, the readability or overall program.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#23

Post by henrik_w »

xradionut wrote: post #21
scrabble wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There's also difficulty in finding mentors. There are sites that pop up claiming to offer software mentorship, but most seem to be just people who are willing to help you with an issue you're having with your code. That is not a good mentor-protege relationship.

There's also a problem finding decent students/coworkers that listen. I don't know how many times I've made suggestions and recommendations, just to be ignored. I co-lead a local programming user group and we commonly help people. Frequently we encounter people that want us to fix the bug in one line of code and don't want help in fixing the structure, the function, the readability or overall program.

Exactly. Not enough developers care enough to be either good mentors or good mentees.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#24

Post by noonespecial »

If one doctor can transplant a heart in ten hours, can ten nurses transplant that heart in one hour? Can a hundred nursing assistants transplant that heart in six minutes? Can six hundred hospital receptionists transplant that heart in one minute?

The real question is: Could the doctor do the transplant without any nurses? Could the nurses help the doctor without the receptionists?

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#25

Post by xacaxulu »

Don't hire and mentor a newbie or a graduate of a coding school, just hire a master coder+pilot. Perhaps the consultancy team at 8th Light could pick up your project for thousands of dollars a day...

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#26

Post by normloman »

dbecker wrote: post #20

Is our industry doing the equivalent of offering free rides to hopeful software developers, calling them pilots, and throwing them by the thousands into airplanes just to watch them crash and burn? With some exceptions, it's less dangerous when a novice programmer writes ugly code than when a pilot crashes a plane. So we shouldn't require as much caution around letting people program as we do in letting them fly an a…

Just don't let them program air traffic control software.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#27

Post by herge »

normloman wrote: post #26
dbecker wrote: post #20

Is our industry doing the equivalent of offering free rides to hopeful software developers, calling them pilots, and throwing them by the thousands into airplanes just to watch them crash and burn? With some exceptions, it's less dangerous when a novice programmer writes ugly code than when a pilot crashes a plane. So we shouldn't require as much caution around letting people program as we do in letting them fly an a…

Just don't let them program air traffic control software.

Or medical imaging devices.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#28

Post by mathattack »

IMHO... You can't get a crew of experienced software engineers without starting with hordes of novices. It's just not a field where you can say, "Pass the entrance exam, get some mentoring, and come back in 6 years with experience." It's a field that you need to explore and find if you have the passion. (And I hate the word passion)

So it might take 20 novices coming out of these feeders to find 10 who become decent junior programmers, to get 5 who stick it out to become decent intermediate programmers, to get 1 who becomes a rock star.

But is this so bad? What's the downside? Everyone who falls off along the way becomes someone with tools to make themselves more productive in whatever they do in life.

And what's the alternative?

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#29

Post by sailfast »

As a relative "novice" compared to the author, I welcome the suggestion that more formalized mentorship and "sign-off" by someone with experience would improve programming. Sorry I can't do your apprenticeship program. I see what you did there. Up scope! http://www.8thlight.com/apprenticeship

The problem is that this cannot be implemented at scale, and certainly will not respond to demand. One may not have the opportunity to find in person mentors, but instead have the internet and a problem to solve. You have to navigate through on your own to find the people that do it right, and you may latch on to the wrong people!

On the hiring side - for critical systems with a profit incentive and high potential, (or for a company with a unique mission that entices developers) you can afford to find and hire the bard. For other tasks, something is better than nothing so you get mediocre code. (there is still a HUGE market out there for that small something for small to medium businesses).

For outlying scenarios where markets have become imbalanced by regulation or law (such as government contracting) you get incentives to put butts in seats regardless of experience as long as they meet the criteria. (Java cert = signed pilot's card right?)

Certification is hard to get right, as is mastery. I applaud you for creating an environment to provide guidance and make mistakes and would welcome a larger scale effort to do so.

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