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The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

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Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#21

Post by TriinT »

Alex3917 wrote: post #13
TriinT wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freeman Dyson is a skeptic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTSxubKfTBU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k69HUuyI5Mk Do you have the audacity to call him a conspiracy theorist? He's only one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century. What kind of track record do you have to belittle Dyson? Seriously. The point I am trying to make: not at skeptics are born equal. Some are ignorant fools. But others are well-educated…

From the video you linked to: "The public thinks you have to wait until global warming is proved before you do something, but that's completely ridiculous." The only thing from this video that suggests Dyson is a skeptic is the title.

You missed the point. This article explains things in greater detail:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#22

Post by TriinT »

DannoHung wrote: post #19
mattmaroon wrote: post #5

Why do these global warming skeptic articles keep popping up here? Global warming is certainly OT, and skeptics' theories are not really any more interesting than any other conspiracy theories.

Because any place that involves technological discussions attracts a number of self-styled "objectivists" and libertarians who can't cotton to the idea that collective selfless behavior is needed to solve any problem.

I would dare to say that there's much, much more than ideology here. There's an awful lot of propaganda on Global Warming. The facts that are presented are, in a way, manipulated to scare the masses. For me it's more than ideology, it's a matter of principle. I would like to see good, honest and open scientific debate on this topic, and that seems to be impossible. Anyone who questions the validity of the global warming predictions is labeled as a crackpot. This is very dangerous. This kind of dogmatic view is rather similar to the Inquisition.

If everybody had studied the global climate in detail and had arrived at the same conclusions, then the fact that everybody thinks the same way would not be dangerous. After all, everybody thinks the Earth is approximately ellipsoidal, and everybody can measure it. However, very few people have studied the climate in detail, and due to this herd movement, any scientist who questions the predictions the most pessimistic arrive to is attacked. This is unacceptable.

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#23

Post by gruseom »

mattmaroon wrote: post #10
gruseom wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Conspiracy theory" is an interesting phrase. It doesn't have a meaning so much as a purpose: to shut someone up by ostracizing them and/or to shut the minds of third parties (a signal that most people reflexively obey). It's a conformist move that has a tinge of violence about it, if a phrase can be called violent. Personally, as soon as I hear someone labeled a "conspiracy theorist" I immediately sympathize with th…

"Conspiracy theory" has a very simple meaning ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory ) and no derision at all. You might take it as belittling but it's not. The term "conformist" on the other hand fits your description perfectly.

Come to think of it, "belittle" doesn't exactly capture what I meant, which is to mark someone as outside the zone of proper discourse. I will change the comment.

No derision at all

That's obviously not true. If it were, people would use the phrase to describe their own views sometimes.

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#24

Post by TriinT »

evolve2k wrote: post #3

This article is useless and skewed. Im from Australia and the senator in question is a known skeptic who benefits from promoting those interests who would have most to loose in a carbon constrained economy. "Skeptics" continue to benefit from saying oh its not happening. A senator taking a (likley) free trip to the US for a conference against climate change, big news! You might find this more informative: http://wake…

Some remarks:

1) the fact that the senator in question benefits from denying global warming does not mean that the global warming pseudo-science is true. Politicians can never be trusted. Period. And you seem to have fallen under the spell of the ad hominem fallacy.

2) Not all skeptics are the same. My skepticism stems from the fact that I do have a solid education in the sciences (unlike the average citizen), not from the fact that I stand to gain from denying global warming.

3) Last but not least: "most to loose" should be "most to lose". Generally speaking, people with a proper sense of spelling are taken more seriously than those who lack it. Maybe I am being pedantic, but if I were reading your CV and you made spelling errors like this, I would think twice before hiring you. This is an observation, not an attack.

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#25

Post by vixen99 »

mattmaroon wrote: post #5

Why do these global warming skeptic articles keep popping up here? Global warming is certainly OT, and skeptics' theories are not really any more interesting than any other conspiracy theories.

Conspiracy? Do you mean any 'theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful Machiavellian conspirators'? This would indeed be a weird way of describing the arguments and data put forward by a significant number of authoritative scientists of the calibre for instance of MIT's Richard Lindzen. The arguments against global warming hysteria are out in the open for all to examine, discuss and refute if they will. I mentioned Lindzen so here's a recent contribution.

http://portaldata.colgate.edu/imagegallerywww/3503/ImageGall...?

This is conspiratorial?

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#26

Post by TriinT »

It does not matter that the number of skeptics is swelling. It would not matter either if the number of warmists were swelling. Science is about observation, experimentation. Science is not about consensus. The truth does not care about what the ignorant masses think.

It does not matter either if the number of skeptic scientists is swelling. What matters is the opinion of the scientists who have studied the global climate. The opinion of the experts is the only one that matters. And since the experts may be wrong, their opinion should be viewed as an opinion, not as an absolute truth.

Moreover, I want to stress something important. This is not a game of "us versus them". The truth does not care for such petty human weaknesses. The climate is an extremely difficult problem, and anyone who's too sure of his / her views is probably not a real expert. And scientists should have the freedom to speak what they think, without fearing being attacked by the gullible masses.

I finish with a quote by Robert Oppenheimer:

"There must be no barriers for freedom of inquiry. There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any asssertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors."

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#27

Post by codahale »

TriinT wrote: post #18
JeremyBanks wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appeal to authority. Please try again, I'm curious.

It's not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to good ideas. Dyson's points are valid. If you dismiss them without even thinking deeply about them, you're pretty much doing what the Inquisition did to Galileo. Moreover, Dyson's points are based on good Science. He focuses on measurements and data, which are hard evidence. Dyson does not appeal to emotion or fear.

You said "Do you have the audacity to call him a conspiracy theorist? He's only one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century. What kind of track record do you have to belittle Dyson?"

That is an explicit appeal to authority.

Re: The Climate Change Climate Change: The number of skeptics is swelling

#28

Post by TriinT »

codahale wrote: post #27
TriinT wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an appeal to authority, it's an appeal to good ideas. Dyson's points are valid. If you dismiss them without even thinking deeply about them, you're pretty much doing what the Inquisition did to Galileo. Moreover, Dyson's points are based on good Science. He focuses on measurements and data, which are hard evidence. Dyson does not appeal to emotion or fear.

You said "Do you have the audacity to call him a conspiracy theorist? He's only one of the greatest scientists of the 20th Century. What kind of track record do you have to belittle Dyson?" That is an explicit appeal to authority.

Fair enough. You have a point.

But then, only in a fantasy world do people not appeal to authority. Someone who has a track record is always more reliable than someone who lacks it. And, to be honest, this is a good thing.

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