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What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

blog.kunvay.com

21–30 of 74 posts

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#21
It works like this:

Companies have limited liability in the USA. They are subject to full market discipline. The owners of the companies are not.

And thus ... business between companies should take precautions such as getting paid a retainer, at milestones, etc. and assume that some payments will not be coming.

Meanwhile people (e.g. employees) can rely on the government to put heavy pressure on employers to pay them. I am in favor of more direct guarantees of basic living standards -- i.e. a basic income -- such as some European countries are doing. That way even the employer-employee relationship can be less regulated.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#22

Question for other freelancers: how do you handle changes in a spec? I've been nervous about this lately because I'm doing freelance work and the contract outlined a spec that we've now deviated from greatly. I'm not incredibly worried because we do bi-weekly billing but do you regularly ask clients to revise contracts if the spec changes? And when you begin a contract, what level of specificity in a spec is a good i…

We basically wrote up what we called a change order. Detailed how we changed, or what we deviated on. Signed by both parties as just a cya sort of deal.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#23
Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh".

I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / rampant psychotic narcissism. But with businesses, I state my rate I estimate hours & then I bill them.

I'm sure there is a more secure way of handling this with contracts but if a company I work remotely for ever stiffs me on a bill: 1. They better be closing up shop the next day or I'm gonna come after them hard. 2. They lose access to the skills I offer them. 3. I probably have accounts/services in their name that they can't alter/operate without my help, so they're really just shooting themselves in the foot & will likely come to realize this rather quickly.

Anyway worst case scenario I lose 1 payment (maybe it was 1-3 grand?). Maybe it's scary to think that a 3k payment might disappear but the reality is, after discussing with them they'll probably just hand it over anyway or you can settle in between. Even if I one day lose a thousand dollars (which I highly doubt) I can look back and smile knowing I never had to deal with a ton of legalese.

The reality of it is that businesses can't just stiff you on a bill if they agreed to pay for your services, and if you have nice clients who are trying to build a business they have no reason to hurt you if you do good work for them. But I understand not everyone has the luxury of sane clients. I certainly didn't back when I was dealing 1-on-1 with artists.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#24

While #1 is getting a contract, in "Mark's" case, he has a claim for Unjust Enrichment. If you have a client that uses work you did, even if you have no contract, you can still sue for damages under Unjust Enrichment laws in the US.

There's theory (taught at Yale Law), and then there's practice. While you may be theoretically correct, on a practical level, the lack of a contract makes getting paid much more difficult. Unfortunately, I can't bill the client for the time or stress of the legal case, and winning is never a certainty. Consider that the client is much larger, and may have lawyers on staff full-time.

I'm guessing most freelance work is for pretty small amounts. Unless you are talking about a claim in excess of $10,000, it's not going to be worth pursuing, you will owe your lawyer more than that very quickly. If it's a local client you might have some luck in small claims court where you typically represent yourself.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#25
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

    > The reality of it is that businesses can't just stiff
    > you on a bill if they agreed to pay for your services
That feels like it should be true, but it's not. I'm not just speaking about software; a large portion of my family is in construction, and I'm shocked at how often client businesses think they can get away with just not paying them.

Perhaps it actually is better in the software world, where clients (hopefully) know they are going to need you in the future.

Anyway, good for you that you can find clients that know they need to pay you; but not all businesses have figured that out.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#26
post #25
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

> The reality of it is that businesses can't just stiff > you on a bill if they agreed to pay for your services That feels like it should be true, but it's not. I'm not just speaking about software; a large portion of my family is in construction, and I'm shocked at how often client businesses think they can get away with just not paying them. Perhaps it actually is better in the software world, where clients (hopefu…

Years ago I worked for a mom & pop computer consulting shop and I was surprised by how many small businesses just didn't pay their bills.

Anecdotally, we did a lot of work with local law firms and they were the worst. (I guess because what're you gonna do? Sue them?)

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#27
post #25
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

> The reality of it is that businesses can't just stiff > you on a bill if they agreed to pay for your services That feels like it should be true, but it's not. I'm not just speaking about software; a large portion of my family is in construction, and I'm shocked at how often client businesses think they can get away with just not paying them. Perhaps it actually is better in the software world, where clients (hopefu…

Hmm I'm sorry to hear that. :-/

But if they brought a civil suit they would win easily, no? That's what I really meant by that line. My father is a lawyer & every time I bring up something like that to him he laughs. "Of course they have to pay, it's just too much trouble sometimes. Usually just the threat of legal action is good enough."

Maybe it's not so simple but that's a shame.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#28
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

I agree with this, completely.

During the first 5 or 6 years of my 10 years of freelance, I almost never had a contract in place, and I _never_ got fucked over for it.

That's not to say it's OK to avoid contracts. Only a single set of data points that says it's possible to do business without them and still do very well.

Of course larger clients will generally require them to cover their own asses. And any project that's over x, where x seems like a good deal of money, should _always_ be covered by a contract - both for your safety and the safety of your client.

But the cynical idea that everyone is out to get you is silly. Yes, get a lawyer to get a solid standard contract together for you. But then pay attention to the clients you're dealing with. A contract gives you a legal standing in court, but you still have to go to court. There's a lot more to be said for choosing clients that aren't going to cause trouble in the first place.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#29
post #28
post #23

Just throwing this out there since I know the common wisdom is to "have a contract, duh". I have a few clients who basically put me on a retainer, then I send them a bill. If you give an hourly rate + an estimate clients seem to be cool, provided they are actual businessses. The only clients I've ever had issues with are individuals (usually artists since I freelance electronic media) and that stems from budget / ram…

I agree with this, completely. During the first 5 or 6 years of my 10 years of freelance, I almost never had a contract in place, and I _never_ got fucked over for it. That's not to say it's OK to avoid contracts. Only a single set of data points that says it's possible to do business without them and still do very well. Of course larger clients will generally require them to cover their own asses. And any project th…

all good advice. I've actually had issues working with larger clients because they try to give all-inclusive project prices. For one I fulfilled it and weaseled into off-contract hourly rate and that actually worked out much much better for me.

If you give a tech consultant a job they will code from A to B. The client is always the one throwing up roadblocks and change requets. If they don't understand that they are on the hook for those billing hours, yeah you don't have a good client there...

ONLY USE HOURLY RATE + ESTIMATE that's the best advice I can give on top of enobrev's. Maybe others disagree, but in my experience project rates mean the client will try to take advantage or if you get a project price that seems absurdly high & you get that flash of $$ signs in your eyes, the client will usually realize they overpaid and you'll lose potential future business with them. Just use a rate and be somewhat ethical about it. Even if you don't have a huge client base, they will all come back around for more work every few months.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#30
I may be misunderstanding something here. To paraphrase, the argument this article opens with is "we didn't agree that you were working for me, so I don't have to pay you" along with "because we didn't have an agreement which protects your ownership of your work, I can do whatever I want with it." I thought the law (shop law?) defaults to an independent contractor owning his or her own work in most (every?) states? Even if the law defaults to a work-for-hire agreement (where the client owns the work outright) for independent contractors, how could the client reasonably argue that he/she somehow doesn't need to compensate the contractor (essentially saying "Me? You weren't working for me!"), while simultaneously arguing that somehow the client has any/all rights to the work?

I'd hope that anyone in this kind of situation would think through this kind of logic, short circuit to "okay, I'm dealing with a ripe asshole here" and take the same action which they would toward anyone else outright stealing from them.

Edit:

Regarding contract/no contract, experienced/knowledgeable clients will require a contract when dealing with an independent contractor, even if for no other purpose than to protect their ability to make use of the output of said contractor's work.

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