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Elon Musk on First Principles

blog.microlancer.com

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Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#21

Post by redmaverick »

Radim wrote: post #14
redmaverick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When someone can't reason from such a basis, and they are insisting on some plan or assertion based on their 'gut' I find it very hard to accept that as acceptable. When they won't even talk about how one might reason to the point, I find it unacceptable. Not all people rely on linear and logical problem solving abilities. People who are creative tend towards "gut/intuition/instinct". Take for example Magnus Carls…

Occult drivel. Where on earth did you read that about Magnus Carlsen? To say good chess players (not to say grandmasters, let alone world champions) don't calculate moves borders on insulting.

According to Kasparov, Carlsen has a knack for sensing the potential energy in each move, even if its ultimate effect is too far away for anyone — even a computer — to calculate. In the grand-master commentary room, where chess’s clerisy gather to analyze play, the experts did not even consider several of Carlsen’s moves during his game with Kramnik until they saw them and realized they were perfect. “It’s hard to explain,” Carlsen says. “Sometimes a move just feels right.”

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#22

Post by redmaverick »

resetmp wrote: post #17
redmaverick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When someone can't reason from such a basis, and they are insisting on some plan or assertion based on their 'gut' I find it very hard to accept that as acceptable. When they won't even talk about how one might reason to the point, I find it unacceptable. Not all people rely on linear and logical problem solving abilities. People who are creative tend towards "gut/intuition/instinct". Take for example Magnus Carls…

Please don't attribute quotes to well-known people without reliable references. This is a false Einstein quote paraphrased by Bob Samples in his book Metaphoric Mind: A Celebration of Creative Consciousness . [1] http://www.quora.com/Albert-Einstein/Did-Einstein-ever-say-%...

Here is a proper quote with a reliable reference.

"All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration.... At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason."

-- Albert Einstein

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#23

Post by tunesmith »

redmaverick wrote: post #13
ChuckMcM wrote: post #4

I'm a big fan of reasoning from first principles, but in practice it tends to work out more like 'total honesty' does with your spouse. Which is to say, not always all that great. I tend to be a reasoned sort of guy, this doesn't mean I don't say stupid things, I do, but when called on those things I can tell you how I reasoned to them and you can help me see the error in my reasoning. When someone can't reason from…

>> When someone can't reason from such a basis, and they are insisting on some plan or assertion based on their 'gut' I find it very hard to accept that as acceptable. When they won't even talk about how one might reason to the point, I find it unacceptable. Not all people rely on linear and logical problem solving abilities. People who are creative tend towards "gut/intuition/instinct". Take for example Magnus Carls…

It's a tradeoff. Intuitive/gut thinking and heuristics are faster. But they'll be wrong when things are counterintuitive. And people that rely strongly on these models are often the hardest to convince of counterintuitive results.

The trick is to become facile at both methods.

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#24

Post by jlgreco »

Radim wrote: post #14
redmaverick wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When someone can't reason from such a basis, and they are insisting on some plan or assertion based on their 'gut' I find it very hard to accept that as acceptable. When they won't even talk about how one might reason to the point, I find it unacceptable. Not all people rely on linear and logical problem solving abilities. People who are creative tend towards "gut/intuition/instinct". Take for example Magnus Carls…

Occult drivel. Where on earth did you read that about Magnus Carlsen? To say good chess players (not to say grandmasters, let alone world champions) don't calculate moves borders on insulting.

Obviously their actions are calculated, unless you pull in some notion of a non-materialist brain (some sort of strange "dualism" for which there is no evidence), everything they do is calculated in the strict sense. Saying that is missing the point of what is being said though. He is saying that Carlsen does not perform some of these calculations at the same "level of consciousness".

For instance, I know that if I have two apples, and give one away, I now have one apple. I also know that the prime factors of 87 are 3 and 29. One of those I "calculated" in my head, the other I know intuitively. Of course for both my brain performed calculations, but thinking of it like that is rather missing the point.

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#25

Post by drone »

011011100 wrote: post #15
adwn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasoning by analogy is also "thinking". What's wrong with giving different names to different ways of approaching a problem?

Because it formalizes thought and encourages people to use templates rather than actually thinking about it themselves. If you're "solving problems" by always referring to your sheet of "problem solving approaches", then you're doing it wrong. You might still be successful in solving a problem, but you've effectively turned yourself into a robot.

Anyone operating in a template-driven manner is not reasoning by first principles. I'm not sure what legs your argument has, we might as well say that speaking an existing language like English, French, or German makes us robots by forcing us to communicate within a well-defined and rigorous communication structure.

The fallacy of an individual with regards to reasoning is not a function of the fact that methods of reasoning are identified - they are failures of the individual to effectively apply their own creativity. Don't blame the linguistic constructs.

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#26

Post by cbhl »

I have this habit of highlighting text as I read, and on this website, I find that the text is gray and the highlight is a very similar shade of gray.

Does this bother anyone else?

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#27

Post by bronson »

redmaverick wrote: post #22
resetmp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't attribute quotes to well-known people without reliable references. This is a false Einstein quote paraphrased by Bob Samples in his book Metaphoric Mind: A Celebration of Creative Consciousness . [1] http://www.quora.com/Albert-Einstein/Did-Einstein-ever-say-%...

Here is a proper quote with a reliable reference. "All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration.... At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason." -- Albert Einstein

That certainty served him very well in the first 1/4 of his career, not so well in the final 3/4. :)

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#28

Post by drone »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #4

I'm a big fan of reasoning from first principles, but in practice it tends to work out more like 'total honesty' does with your spouse. Which is to say, not always all that great. I tend to be a reasoned sort of guy, this doesn't mean I don't say stupid things, I do, but when called on those things I can tell you how I reasoned to them and you can help me see the error in my reasoning. When someone can't reason from…

> I tend to be a reasoned sort of guy, this doesn't mean I don't say stupid things, I do, but when called on those things I can tell you how I reasoned to them and you can help me see the error in my reasoning. ... When they won't even talk about how one might reason to the point, I find it unacceptable.

I'm not sure that the outcome would be different in this case, whether you reasoned by analogy or by first principles. Neither accept a complete lack of reasoning, and both expect some basis for that reasoning.

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#29

Post by Radim »

redmaverick wrote: post #21
Radim wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occult drivel. Where on earth did you read that about Magnus Carlsen? To say good chess players (not to say grandmasters, let alone world champions) don't calculate moves borders on insulting.

According to Kasparov, Carlsen has a knack for sensing the potential energy in each move, even if its ultimate effect is too far away for anyone — even a computer — to calculate. In the grand-master commentary room, where chess’s clerisy gather to analyze play, the experts did not even consider several of Carlsen’s moves during his game with Kramnik until they saw them and realized they were perfect. “It’s hard to ex…

Now, that concept I'm familiar with. In fact, I think that's a rather common feeling, not even exclusive to chess or pros.

Intuition (whatever that is) plays a great role, especially at the top level.

Re: Elon Musk on First Principles

#30

Post by robotresearcher »

Aqueous wrote: post #19
thangalin wrote: post #5

"Reasoning from first principles: What’s the least information I need to collect from the user to make the app functional?" Functional web apps do not need any user information. People should be able to use the app without having to submit any contact details. An account is created for them automatically, and, presuming they like the app, they can provide contact details later. Similarly, most apps do not require pas…

This works if the ultimate goal is to sign them up for a free account. But what if the goal is to convert them to a paid account after a certain trial period? A user can just clear their cache or cookies and use it free indefinitely.

Persistent state (e.g. documents, settings) only available to signed-in users?
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