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The perils of mixing open source and money

david.heinemeierhansson.com

21–30 of 53 posts

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#21
post #16
post #6

It's against this fantastic success of social norms that we should be extraordinary careful before we let market norms corrupt the ecosystem. I consider myself a reasonable person. This quote makes me angry. This comment seems willfully obtuse in my opinion. Not noticing the immense institutional support and money behind Rails is truly silly. I don't want to come off as mean spirited, but he is very silly for saying…

I think you're forgetting that Rails was created for free, in my spare time, while I was being paid $30/hour working for 37signals and other US clients on a variety of projects. But that's even besides the point. Companies letting their employees use company time contributing to OSS has been great. As the first sentence of the article points to, I'm talking about projects raising money directly from the community.

"First of all, it's tempting to cash in on goodwill earned."

The way I see it what you have done is way better.

And this strategy is really what people should be doing as opposed to simply cashing in goodwill:

"Take Ruby on Rails. More than 3,000 people have committed man-decades, maybe even man-centuries, of work for free. Buying all that effort at market rates would have been hundreds of millions of dollars. Who would have been able to afford funding that?"

Work for free that has benefited many people including you. Can't put a price on that.

You created Ruby on Rails and it was like well enough that all those people "more than 3000 ... man-decades ..." have put their time into the project and you have benefited greatly because you are the person that most people associate with Rails. Not any of the 3000 contributors. And that notoriety is what pays off in droves. Even if you passed up a few dollars (debatable by your argument?) you've gotten something way more valuable.

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#23
It's an open marketplace. The project still has to have merit to be funded via Kickstarter or similar venues.

The best use of this strategy has been integration of South into Django itself. The funding for this went above and beyond what was expected as everyone released the immense value of getting this work done. Also, I don't believe anyone is getting rich doing this. In the case of South, there was a genuine request of "hey, I can do this, but I can't make too much progress in my free time".

Using Ruby on Rails is a little disingenuous example too. It's had the backing of its main company (37signals) since its inception.

I do believe that these things will self-adjust itself. On face value, DHH makes interesting arguments. But, projects that are getting funding are being done by people that are already intimidate with the project. Also, the rates that are being set for the hours that will be involved are hardly market rate.

What I love about this new model, is that it can push projects into the mainstream whereas companies start getting involved and allow their employees to spend time making fixes and improving the projects.

Another example of this was Microsoft's financial support for the jquery UI team for building the grid. They funded I believe at least one developer's salary to get the work done. I don't think anyone would argue that this was a bad move as the jquery team was still in control of the project and the timeline (which has definitely been pushed back with regards to the grid).

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#24
I think the article is more about crowdfunding and open source.

Until now every single awesome open source project has managed to take off without a kickstarter campaign. Nowadays everyone promises to deliver an awesome open source project if you first provide funds.

I have donated to many open source/free software projects, either directly or through crowdfunding when they had a specific goal (eg libre graphics meeting, a full time dev to refactor kdenlive).

But I am really skeptical of someone who wants money before he delivers anything. Free software needs the kind of love that money can't buy in order to be successful.

I will gladly help free software projects but not so gladly free software promises.

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#25
Someone who drives a custom made Pagani Zonda at a price point of well over $1 million shouldn't be talking about "The perils of mixing open source and money"

edit: So, let's translate this article, shall we?

"Hey guys, it seems to me that it's getting a lot easier to get funding and release quality software products these days. So i'd like to request you stop doing that, please. It's competition to my ba$ecamp and stuff and i'd rather not have to deal with that because my racecars need new tires soooo often, lol. So yea, just make free libraries and stuff don't make anything too good lol"

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#26
Money is influence, the source of that money is influential.

What are the perils of the other sources of money in open source?

For quite a long time the best documentation and guide for using Rails was a book.

Quite a few of the top contributors to Rails have published books about it.

Documentation is very much a weak point for open source. Should we criticize those who contribute to open source and request money for the documentation?

If not, why spread FUD around the idea of asking for direct monetary support of the code itself?

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#27
post #6

It's against this fantastic success of social norms that we should be extraordinary careful before we let market norms corrupt the ecosystem. I consider myself a reasonable person. This quote makes me angry. This comment seems willfully obtuse in my opinion. Not noticing the immense institutional support and money behind Rails is truly silly. I don't want to come off as mean spirited, but he is very silly for saying…

+1. I was going to say this but you said it better. My hackles go up when people say open source is better. That's true sometimes but it most certainly is not always true and I've argued for years that open source is usually a better (or worse) copy of some closed source thing that someone found useful and didn't like that it was closed.

Well of course it's not true when you re-frame the argument into a strawman like that. A large percentage of proprietary programs are also blatant copies or ripoffs of something else. The issue that we're trying to get to is that free/open source software is principally better, not that all open source software is always less buggy or more featureful than the proprietary software it's intended to replace. Obviously that would be a ridiculous assumption, anyone who's seen all the crap throwaway projects on github can attest to it.

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#28
post #17
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're forgetting that Rails was created for free, in my spare time, while I was being paid $30/hour working for 37signals and other US clients on a variety of projects. But that's even besides the point. Companies letting their employees use company time contributing to OSS has been great. As the first sentence of the article points to, I'm talking about projects raising money directly from the community.

My point is that this is, in and of itself, fundraising. Edit Also, I don't want to minimize the effort it took for you to create Rails, build momentum behind it, and get other people excited about it. What if Kickstarter, et al is just a new medium to help empower other people to do what you did?

Nobody would have contributed to an unproven web framework written in a then-obscure language.

Two recent OS fundraising successes I can think of are funding for further development of Typed Clojure, and the integration/rewrite of South into Django core. Both projects were in production use when they raised the money!

Imagine today, someone pitching to build a new async web framework in Livescript. "Why not Ember/Meteor/Angular!?" "Why not Javascript?!". It could be that someone comes up with a truly killer framework by utilizing Livescript's features the way DHH did with Ruby and Rails, and if they did I'd happily use it, but I wouldn't put my money on it today.

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#29
Funding future software development through Kickstarter is a really dangerous proposition, even more for the person receiving the funding than the people who contribute to it. There've been success stories, but when things go bad it can ruin someone's life and credibility.

Maybe I'm wrong, but just from passive observation, it seems like for projects which haven't even been started at the beginning of the Kickstarter campaign, success stories are the exception rather than the rule.

It's so easy for someone to not manage expectations properly, especially in the early stages when they're trying to get the attention of potential backers. It's so easy to underestimate the time involved in any sort of creative venture that isn't 100% specced out ahead of time, whether it's software or an RPG supplement or a gadget or whatever. Software development time in particular is insanely difficult to predict.

I strongly feel like Kickstarter is best for projects that are essentially complete, but need funding for mass production or other costs related to distribution. The danger from Kickstarting open source projects isn't so much from money somehow polluting the goals of a project, as it is from the whole thing just blowing up into a nightmare for everyone involved. It's hard enough to predict timelines and establish requirements and manage expectations for one manager, I can't imagine what it would be like when trying to keep hundreds or thousands of managers happy and on the same page.

Re: The perils of mixing open source and money

#30
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're forgetting that Rails was created for free, in my spare time, while I was being paid $30/hour working for 37signals and other US clients on a variety of projects. But that's even besides the point. Companies letting their employees use company time contributing to OSS has been great. As the first sentence of the article points to, I'm talking about projects raising money directly from the community.

"First of all, it's tempting to cash in on goodwill earned." The way I see it what you have done is way better. And this strategy is really what people should be doing as opposed to simply cashing in goodwill: "Take Ruby on Rails. More than 3,000 people have committed man-decades, maybe even man-centuries, of work for free. Buying all that effort at market rates would have been hundreds of millions of dollars. Who wo…

I don't think dhh would argue that he has made a nice bank roll on Rails - no one would. But he isn't the only one that's benefited. There are quite a few of the 3000 committers that have their own consulting companies and they do quite well. Many speak at conferences, write books, etc. This is all pretty standard in the OS community and nothing new to Rails or dhh.

I think what he's taking aim at more is that he did this for free of charge and did not require any fundraising campaign to get it off the ground (or continue it). And it's the other freedom (in his case, libre) that allowed him to do whatever he wanted, on whatever whim he wanted. There was no hard deadline (except those he made) imposed because of funding constraints. And from that perspective, he's absolutely right: not beholden to anyone else's money or rules is the ultimate freedom to be as creative as you want to make whatever you want.

Because it's possible now to get a project funded on something like Kickstarter, there's less freedom when that happens because money becomes the ultimate driver. If it wasn't, then there'd be no need for it and work on the project could take any form over any timeframe.

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