The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month • Hacker News Board

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#21

Post by tty » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:05 PM UTC

levosmetalo wrote: post #18

tty wrote: post #5

The Polish minority in Lithuania doesn't have the right to use the Polish orthography and/or letters of the Polish alphabet when writing their names. http://www.nouvelle-europe.eu/en/polish-national-minority-li...

... because allowing every minority or every individual to use their own alphabet would soon require the full unicode support everywhere, which is not a big deal, as well as that everyone else knows how to read/write it, which is a big deal. Btw, I am also not allowed to use Cyrillic alphabet or latin "ć" here in Germany when filling out official forms, but I don't consider that my rights are somehow jeopardized beca…

The Polish minority in Lithuania is autochtone, as far as I know (unlike Cyrillic in Germany). Furthermore, it's not merely a matter of not using the Polish letters - as the link that I provided says, their names get Lithuanized. (Mickiewicz > Mickevičius)

Since I assume you're Serbian (your handle + the mention of ć and Cyrillic), here's an example.

Imagine that the Hungarians in North of Serbia weren't allowed to write their name as Szabo Lajos (or Lajos Szabo) and instead they were forced to use Lajoš Sabić.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#22

Post by egeozcan » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:19 PM UTC

unwind wrote: post #15

duman wrote: post #3

The letter Q was never illegal in Turkey. It was just not allowed to be used in names of people/companies etc. due to the fact that it is not in Turkish alphabet. It is like letters ç,ğ,ü being illegal in US.

Have some Häagen-Dazs if you really think using "the wrong letters" is illegal in the US.

Häagen-Dazs has always been allowed to operate in Turkey as well as Quiznos Sub and others.

If you wanted a local company, yes, you were only allowed to use Turkish letters in the official name. They didn't actually care what you actually wrote on your signs though.

Official names being Turkish is important because otherwise officials would have needed to be capable of working with all characters in the universe.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#23

Post by ozgung » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:19 PM UTC

diorray wrote: post #20

vidarh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication . E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official commu…

Let me give you another example of manipulation: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753 - In this picture, they're wrote "Now, Q - W - X are free" in Turkish Let's check English version of that: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032 "Kurdish letters are now free" ..there is no ban for usage of Kurdish letters in public. As i said, because of Q, W, X letters are not in Turkish…

Such manipulations are typical for the pro-Islamic AK Party. This was not a democratic reform, it's just propaganda. There are no x, w, q letters in Turkish language hence no place for them in Turkish alphabet. A true democratic reform would be to legalize the Kurdish alphabet and the Kurdish language as a separate language. (And I'm saying that as a so-called 'Kemalist')

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#24

Post by diorray » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

ozgung wrote: post #23

diorray wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me give you another example of manipulation: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753 - In this picture, they're wrote "Now, Q - W - X are free" in Turkish Let's check English version of that: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032 "Kurdish letters are now free" ..there is no ban for usage of Kurdish letters in public. As i said, because of Q, W, X letters are not in Turkish…

Such manipulations are typical for the pro-Islamic AK Party. This was not a democratic reform, it's just propaganda. There are no x, w, q letters in Turkish language hence no place for them in Turkish alphabet. A true democratic reform would be to legalize the Kurdish alphabet and the Kurdish language as a separate language. (And I'm saying that as a so-called 'Kemalist')

+1. And they're step by step trying to create jihadist Turkey just like Iran: http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5756/77201414.jpg (before - after)

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#25

Post by levosmetalo » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:27 PM UTC

tty wrote: post #21

levosmetalo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... because allowing every minority or every individual to use their own alphabet would soon require the full unicode support everywhere, which is not a big deal, as well as that everyone else knows how to read/write it, which is a big deal. Btw, I am also not allowed to use Cyrillic alphabet or latin "ć" here in Germany when filling out official forms, but I don't consider that my rights are somehow jeopardized beca…

The Polish minority in Lithuania is autochtone, as far as I know (unlike Cyrillic in Germany). Furthermore, it's not merely a matter of not using the Polish letters - as the link that I provided says, their names get Lithuanized. ( Mickiewicz > Mickevičius ) Since I assume you're Serbian (your handle + the mention of ć and Cyrillic), here's an example. Imagine that the Hungarians in North of Serbia weren't allowed to…

> Imagine that the Hungarians in North of Serbia weren't allowed to write their name as Szabo Lajos (or Lajos Szabo) and instead they were forced to use Lajoš Sabić.

You are absolutely right here. I was speaking only about an alphabet part of the problems, and why it is not practical. Forcing someone else to "translate" the name is completely other problem, which is much more severe. There is certainly a difference between writing István as Ištvan simply because it's how it's pronounced and the lack of á in alphabet and forcing him to call himself Ivan (or Stefan).

There are many offenders to this, like Greece, or Bulgaria, or China, which IIRC at one moment required its own citizens to have "westernized" names in their travel documents.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#26

Post by mda » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:35 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #19

To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of the symbolism used by European r…

A correction,

Ottomans started talking about having a constitutional monarchy in early 19th century and first constitutional government officially started in 1876. However this was short lived and constitution changed 2 years later to weaken the parliament. Second constitutional era starts in 1908 and ends with the collapse of the empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Deputies_(Ottoman_Em...

So first steps of a republic was already in place before Ataturk was even born, democracy was the natural choice for the new Turkey.

Sorry but I found most of the other claims you say rather bizarre as well..

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#27

Post by vidarh » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:35 PM UTC

diorray wrote: post #20

vidarh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication . E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official commu…

Let me give you another example of manipulation: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM/status/384629580226506753 - In this picture, they're wrote "Now, Q - W - X are free" in Turkish Let's check English version of that: https://twitter.com/AKGenclikGM_en/status/384649333884588032 "Kurdish letters are now free" ..there is no ban for usage of Kurdish letters in public. As i said, because of Q, W, X letters are not in Turkish…

Surely then, it should be easy for you to find a reference that contradicts the sources I presented.

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#28

Post by ido » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:38 PM UTC

beloch wrote: post #19

To put things in perspective, you really need to take a look at the past to appreciate modern Turkey. The Ottoman empire was ruled by Sultan's who wielded absolute power, much like the leaders of other Arab nations today. Prior to the Sultan's were the emperor's of the Holy Roman empire, who wielded power so absolute that even medieval Europeans would have found it unsettling. Much of the symbolism used by European r…

The Holy Roman Empire was where Germany is today, prior to the Ottoman Sultan Turkey & territories were known as the Byzantine empire aka eastern Roman empire (and before that simply the Roman empire before it split into west & east).

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#29

Post by pavlov » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:40 PM UTC

jpatokal wrote: post #6

thret wrote: post #2

The first comment has a link to this article: http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two... Wow.

Yup, accents can be pretty critical. In Finnish, näin means "I saw", but nain means "I had sex with". This put a bit of a twist on a friend trying to tell me "I saw the rapist in the park!" when the umlaut dropped off...

To make things even more complicated, nain means either "I had sex with N" or "I married N" depending on the case of the object noun.

I've always thought it awfully pragmatic that the Finnish word for "getting married" is literally "to go and fuck together".

Re: The letter Q was illegal in Turkey from 1928 until last month

#30

Post by vidarh » Mon, Oct 21, 2013, 12:44 PM UTC

diorray wrote: post #17

vidarh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every reference I've found claims that the relevant law made the use of the Turkish alphabet compulsory in all public communication . E.g. "Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law", by Derya Bayir repeats the claim that the Law on the Turkish Alphabet of 1928 "obliged the use of the Turkish alphabet", as part of a section describing legal decisions used to outlaw use of Kurdish and other languages in official commu…

The legislation you gave shows Turkish alphabet and Q, W, X is not included in this alphabet. AFAIK, generally country laws only accepts people/company names in their alphabet. Think that legislation like USA's alphabet. They didn't have Ğ, Ş, İ etc. in their alphabet so people/company names doesn't have these letters. Is that means Ğ, Ş, İ is forbidden? News like this for dramatize the status of kurds in Turkey :)

The legislation goes far beyond restricting that. Unless the english translation is completely wrong, it also required e.g. newspapers and books to use the Turkish alphabet.

That is far beyond legal restrictions in most other countries in the world, and had the defacto effect of placing a lot of restrictions on communication in other languages.