Devops needs feminism • Hacker News Board

Re: Devops needs feminism

#21

Post by Dewie » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:46 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #13

Morendil wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re consta…

The OP might mean it in a more general sense in that we all have our biases, men and women included. It's just that men's biases might be more problematic in this case, since they're the majority in this field so any common bias they may have gets compounded.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#22

Post by dllthomas » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:49 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #15

dllthomas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there? Quite possibly, potentially in cultural portrayals of what goes on there. This isn't to say that necessarily is the cause, but you've by no means clearly demonstrated the lack of causal relationship you seem to think you have.

I think there is a difference between what girls are being told (by entertainment, by teachers, by parents, etc.) happens in engineering schools and what actually happens. The real point is that we can bend over backwards to fix whatever prejudices women encounter in engineering schools or as professional engineers and still accomplish nothing in terms of the disproportionate representation of women in our field. In…

There is a difference, but there is also a relationship.

Consider a world (and ignore, for the moment, whether it corresponds to reality) where professional technical environments just genuinely are really awful to female employees. In that case, the teachers and parents are probably doing what's best for the individual girls (though potentially with some long-term tragedy of the commons). Would you condemn, there, the honesty of the well-intentioned messengers?

We should also consider an alternative fictional world, where women never have any issues in technical fields, and the cultural myth has arisen by whatever historical accident. In that case, I agree that it's quite legitimate to lay much of the blame at the feet of those perpetuating the incorrect myth.

Reality, of course, looks absolutely nothing like either hypothetical.

FWIW, my wife says she was turned off of technical studies after getting to Berkeley (having enjoyed physics in high school) by her impressions of the technical students on arrival.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#23

Post by xkiwi » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:50 PM UTC

As a founder in tech field, I use a few steps to detect feminism,

1. If they have equal opportunities/equipments?

2. If the statements are bias based on other people instead of looking problem within themselves first.

3. Do they have the right/enough knowledge in the field.

In my experiences, Number 3 is very important. I never meet anyone with enough practice & knowledge about programming complains about gender problem. Stories I read is about people cannot write a single line of code but wants to be the executive/Project Manger.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#24

Post by bcj » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:52 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #7

Lots of human groups are underrepresented in technology (africans, older people, latinos etc). Why are feminists the only ones that always make it to the frontpage (even superficial pieces like this one)?

I would hazard to guess that is related to two factors: women are the largest group that are underrepresented; and it is harder to explain women's underrepresentation as a result of socio-economic factors.

No matter where you live, you can expect women to represent ~50% of the population. That makes it very easy to notice if there is a discrepancy, even if you work in a tiny office. To tell whether an ethnic/age group is, you first need to know the prevalence, then you need to have enough people that a discrepency is noticeable.

With a number of groups you can explain why a group is underrepresented by looking at socio-economic factors like their average income, access to technology, access to schooling, etc. For any socio-economic group, there should be (roughly) the same number of men and women in that group, so it can't be used as an explanation of the under-representation of women.

EDIT: I didn't notice that jailbot had already said what I said, but in a less wordy fashion.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#25

Post by betterunix » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:54 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #16

betterunix wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. After all, if men would just treat women equally, then women would represent half the workforce in those fields, right? Women are underrepresented in applications to engineering school . Are adults who are already in the workforce responsible for that? Do high school girl…

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there? My wife, who has a solid head for mathematics but majored in German once explained to me why she didn't go into engineering: 1) because she didn't want to be surrounded by dudes all day; 2) because she didn't want to enter a field where she wouldn't have women bosses and mentors. So if you're a…

Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem.

I also have some doubts about this being the sole issue. As an undergrad, I watched my school work hard to try to play up the fact that there were female students, female professors, and famous women in engineering. This was done whenever potential students were visiting. This was done in pamphlets sent out to high schools. The effect was not even measurable. I see the same pattern in my graduate program, and the same pattern in other engineering schools, and even among recruiters for corporations. I am not sure what else people in the field can do to try to dispel the notion; if indeed this is a cause, I suspect that girls are learning to dislike engineering from somewhere else, but I think that something happens earlier in life, at least if we believe the research on when girls lose interest in technical fields (somewhere around middle school or early high school).

Re: Devops needs feminism

#26

Post by carsongross » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

Devops needs feminism like a fish needs a bicycle.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#27

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:57 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #13

Morendil wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

"> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that?" Well, the article itself: Promoting equality in your organization If you start actively working to attack inequality in your organization, I guarantee you’ll realize you were already a feminist. When your heart’s in the right place and you’re consta…

> The implication in all of this is that there is inequality in our field that is due to our behavior i.e. the behavior of adults in the workforce. It is simply assumed that if we promote equality in our profession, and make it a team effort, then we will get equality.

I feel like you're getting something else out of this article than I did. The previous section, heading: Wanting equality isn’t enough, seems entirely contrary to the conclusion that you're drawn. The author is indicating that promoting/wanting isn't enough. We have to develop an understanding of why the situation is what it is, and actively work on shifting our culture to rectify it (assuming you think it's a problem in the first place, many around me don't).

Re: Devops needs feminism

#28

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 6:03 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #25

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there? My wife, who has a solid head for mathematics but majored in German once explained to me why she didn't go into engineering: 1) because she didn't want to be surrounded by dudes all day; 2) because she didn't want to enter a field where she wouldn't have women bosses and mentors. So if you're a…

Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem. I also have some doubts about this being the sole issue. As an undergrad, I watched my school work hard to try to play up the fact that there we…

> Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem.

Sure they can. They can simply hire more women. Once the gender ratio is sorted out, the new equilibrium will be self-sustaining.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#29

Post by tedunangst » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 6:06 PM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #17

Morendil wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am more infuriated by the idea that if women are underrepresented in technical fields, it must be the fault of the men in those technical fields. Who's saying that? > If we want to actually solve this problem, we need to go all the way to the beginning: middle school, where girls mysteriously start losing interest in technical fields. What do you mean by "go to middle school" - who do you suggest should take what…

I'm only replying to the second question. In the US at least, it seems (and at one point I might have been able to point to the studies) that interest in STEM drops off[1] for female students around middle school, same for minority students. Many efforts at outreach, then, have tried to focus on introducing extracurricular academic programs at those students (often by targetting schools with higher female or minority…

You know what's a guaranteed method for killing a 12 year old's interest in a subject? Have a 40 year old tell them how cool it is.

Re: Devops needs feminism

#30

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

betterunix wrote: post #25

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do high school girls somehow sense the "hostile environment" in engineering schools before they spend a single day there? My wife, who has a solid head for mathematics but majored in German once explained to me why she didn't go into engineering: 1) because she didn't want to be surrounded by dudes all day; 2) because she didn't want to enter a field where she wouldn't have women bosses and mentors. So if you're a…

Perhaps so, but there is nothing people working in the field can do about that. If women are a minority because they are unwilling to join a field where they are a minority, then nothing that men do to change their behavior, attitude, or whatever else will solve the problem. I also have some doubts about this being the sole issue. As an undergrad, I watched my school work hard to try to play up the fact that there we…

There absolutely are things STEM workers can do. If it's a cultural problem in STEM, then we can work to change our culture. If it's a cultural problem with the perception of STEM, we can work to change the perception of STEM.

1. If it's us, then honest self-examination can reveal what we're doing wrong. Are we patronizing towards the women we work with or who are in the ranks below us (grade-wise in school, hierarchically in the workplace) more than we are with the men? Are they more sensitive to it, if so can we change how we approach them to be less off-putting?

2. If it's the wider culture in the US, we can participate in programs that reveal the reality of STEM to a broader audience. Help with youth mentorship programs. Become a teacher. There are many good math and science teachers, but there are many terrible ones too. I like my friends, but some of them teach math because that's what they were qualified to teach by credit hours, not because of an innate interest or understanding. They don't convey the sense of interest and itrigue that can capture children's attention and interest.

3. The reality is some combination of the above, our institutions (educational and professional) contain a great deal of systemic, often unintended, bias. Our media portrays engineers as lonely losers or creeps. As a community we can work to tackle these things if we take it on as a real challenge, instead of dismissing it as just gender differences.