Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#21

Post by mmelin » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 5:33 PM UTC

sharpn wrote: post #9

mixmax wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this community is special in that regard. I feel the exact same way, and I'm sure a lot of other people here do as well. But the thing is that it works and it works well. Microsoft are doing incredibly well. Apparently there are a lot of people out there who are easily convinced by lies, or marketing as some might want to call it.

But I'd suggest that the disappointment people felt with MS products was at least part of what spurred open office & ubuntu (for example) - and open source software certainly threatens MS's revenue stream.

... 20+ years later. Personally I couldn't live with doing business dishonestly, but you can't really say that it didn't work out well for Microsoft.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#22

Post by spooneybarger » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 5:35 PM UTC

zackattack wrote: post #15

spooneybarger wrote: post #4

If you have to ask if its okay, it isn't for you.

I don't think that this sort of blanket statement is universal in the way that your tone implies.

If you question the ethics of something, you have an ethical problem with it, after that it is all justification of why you can allow yourself to do something you find at the very least, morally ambiguous.

purely personal; there was no universal 'you' intended.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#23

Post by midnightmonster » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 5:39 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #10

As I understand it, "Ask HN" posts are supposed to be local, not on another site. But perhaps that was a white lie in your perspective?

And this one, where the OP posed a vague question but made no attempt at providing a solution or even a tough example case, has little excuse, IMO.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#24

Post by midnightmonster » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 5:51 PM UTC

spooneybarger wrote: post #4

If you have to ask if its okay, it isn't for you.

I think this is only reliable if you have a perfect conscience or one so little consulted that you only notice your misgivings when you try to do something really rotten.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#25

Post by kirubakaran » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 5:52 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #20

kirubakaran wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ask HN" posts are supposed to be local Why? What if you want to include a chart or a picture in your 'Ask HN' post?

I guess it's a convention that comes with the fact that people (in many cases) look more kindly on "Ask HN" types of posts and upvote them more generously than external articles.

Looks like you taking your opinion and extrapolating it into "... the fact that people ...", then implying that hence it is immoral ("But perhaps that was a white lie") to ask a non-local 'Ask HN'! Or may be you are just being witty. If anything, local 'Ask HN' is discouraged here by displaying it as gray on gray text.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#26

Post by akeefer » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 6:22 PM UTC

param wrote: post #8

In enterprise software, there is another angle to this problem. If you know that the deployment process is going to take 3 years, should you tell your customers that there are features in your product that are right now sitting on your immedidate roadmap? what about medium term roadmap? How do you determine where the line is? Also, if you know the base feature is there; but you know there are customizations and confi…

As a guy who works at an enterprise vendor that works very, very hard to never lie in the sales cycle . . . in the long run, having a reputation as a vendor that delivers on their promises is a huge asset. Most enterprise software vendors have terrible reputations, and 100% customer referencability is an asset that's much, much harder to copy (or fake) than your product is. Protect it at all costs. That might cost you sales in the short run, and it means you have to walk away from deals if the customer isn't a fit, but your reputation is probably the single most valuable asset that you have in that space.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#27

Post by staunch » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 6:53 PM UTC

mixmax wrote: post #19

staunch wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very cynical way to view the world. I reject it completely. Being dishonest might benefit you in the short term, but building a reputation for honesty is a huge long term advantage.

You're right, it is very cynical. Unfortunately it's also true. I have seen people rise to fame and fortune, and very few of them have done so by building a reputation for honesty. It appears to me that 80% of the people that "make it" financially have done so by lying or cheating at some point in the game. The remaining 20% have made it by having an impeccable reputation that they build on. It's not the norm though.…

You can effectively live in the world you want, by choosing how you do business and who you do business with.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#28

Post by sharpn » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 6:56 PM UTC

mmelin wrote: post #21

sharpn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd suggest that the disappointment people felt with MS products was at least part of what spurred open office & ubuntu (for example) - and open source software certainly threatens MS's revenue stream.

... 20+ years later. Personally I couldn't live with doing business dishonestly, but you can't really say that it didn't work out well for Microsoft.

I agree - the point I was making was about damage to the long term franchise, which I guess an individual salesperson wouldn't care about.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#29

Post by swombat » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 8:59 PM UTC

kirubakaran wrote: post #25

swombat wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it's a convention that comes with the fact that people (in many cases) look more kindly on "Ask HN" types of posts and upvote them more generously than external articles.

Looks like you taking your opinion and extrapolating it into "... the fact that people ...", then implying that hence it is immoral ( "But perhaps that was a white lie" ) to ask a non-local 'Ask HN'! Or may be you are just being witty. If anything, local 'Ask HN' is discouraged here by displaying it as gray on gray text.

You may well be right. I didn't mean to be offensive, nor did I mean to be witty. It was just an observation.

Re: Ask HN: are soft lies in sales okay?

#30

Post by swombat » Mon, Jun 08, 2009, 9:00 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #18

Never. Trust lost is trust lost forever. Reminds me of the parable of a man who sometimes stretched the truth in business. He went to a guru for help with his "problem". The guru's advice: "Take these 10 feather pillows, slash them open, and release the feathers to the wind. Then come back tomorrow." The next day the man returned for more advice, "Now go get the feathers."

I don't get the story at all. Could you explain?