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Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

wired.com

21–30 of 141 posts

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#21
I've never regarded fingerprint-only as an option, because of the reasons the author mentioned in the article. It's more like having a badge or a keyfob...it could be difficult to get, but by no means impossible.

Something you have: fingerprint Something you know: PIN

Combine the two and you can be fairly sure only the owner has access to whatever's being protected.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#22
post #4

In practice, it might have the opposite effect. Currently, 4-digit PINs are (presumably) brute-forceable and the alternative of entering a longer, cryptographically-secure password every time you want to use your phone is impractical, so it doesn't really matter whether you can be legally compelled to divulge your PIN or not. However, with a fingerprint ID, you can now use a cryptographically strong password to encry…

That does you no good if you get nabbed with your phone in the decrypted but locked by fingerprint state. (which would be the common state since the password is a pain in the ass to enter if it's strong, so you do it on boot or something). So provided whoever has your phone can force you to put your thumb on your phone, forge your print, or cut off your thumb, they get your data.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#23
post #4

In practice, it might have the opposite effect. Currently, 4-digit PINs are (presumably) brute-forceable and the alternative of entering a longer, cryptographically-secure password every time you want to use your phone is impractical, so it doesn't really matter whether you can be legally compelled to divulge your PIN or not. However, with a fingerprint ID, you can now use a cryptographically strong password to encry…

IANAL but as far as I know the issue of divulging a passphrase has not been completely settled by the US courts. It seems that the courts are converging on something like this:

1. If the prosecutor can prove that incriminating evidence is encrypted, you can be compelled.

2. If you ever divulged your passphrase to the government or provided the plaintext, you can be compelled.

3. If you have not divulged the passphrase and the government has no proof that incriminating evidence is encrypted, you cannot be compelled.

If I remember correctly, the prosecutor cannot both compel you to give up a passphrase and use your knowledge of the passphrase as evidence against you (e.g. to prove that you controlled the computer in question).

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#25
post #2

[deleted]

In the UK that is true, but it's more complex in the US. My understanding of a recent decision is that the government can compel delivery of a password only if they've already proven from other means some specific evidence that should be available which is protected by that password (since in that case there is already "incrimination" from means other than self-incrimination).

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#27
post #4

In practice, it might have the opposite effect. Currently, 4-digit PINs are (presumably) brute-forceable and the alternative of entering a longer, cryptographically-secure password every time you want to use your phone is impractical, so it doesn't really matter whether you can be legally compelled to divulge your PIN or not. However, with a fingerprint ID, you can now use a cryptographically strong password to encry…

Are you sure you can brute force the PIN? I thought the iPhone will enforce a waiting period after too many bad entries.

Not only does it enforce a waiting period, but it will even lock up permanently (can only be reset via iTunes) if there are too many failed attempts.

My son has verified this personally...

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#28
post #7

I feel like the author of this article is missing the whole point of Fingerprint ID. The feature is meant to make using an iPhone more secure for those of us who tend to leave our phones unlocked and PIN-free. If you're storing anything of value on your phone, the existing password-based and PIN-based lock mechanisms aren't going away any time soon. If nothing else, it'd break too many organizations' Active Directory…

No, you're missing his point. You're in court. You refuse to admit/verify the accusation that you were in the vicinity of the deceased's home. Cell phone records, dutifully recorded and reported under warrant from NSA...er...ATT, show your phone - which you are known to carry pretty much everywhere - was in that vicinity at the crime's time. You contend that does not constitute evidence. The phone is acquired, bailif…

If the phone wasn't password-protected (or fingerprint-protected) at all, the story would be the same except you could skip the "bailiff places your finger..." step.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#29
post #11

Wouldn't you be able to CHOOSE what you apply a fingerprint lock to? Ideally you would only allow it for payments and not other things.

I certainly expect to be able to choose which option I want to use, specially if Apple wants to keep my business. I have no problem remembering long complex passwords and have adapted to the phone authentication method as well. For our own sake, it would be best if we continue to use things ONLY we remember, to authenticate ourselves, otherwise we may be in trouble.

For instance, I recently heard of an older couple who allowed the husband's brother to visit them to talk about a new business he was in. Essentially he wanted to visit the couple with his "mentor" because he needed to "practice". At the end of their visit the couple had been persuaded to: join the "business" as members, for a monthly fee, which was going to be charged to their credit card. THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY A PYRAMID SCHEME! Anyways, after the visit, the terrified the woman immediately called the bank and had them cancel the card, so everything ended up being okay. Imagine if they had handed over their fingerprints! You won't be able to call the bank to tell them to send you a new fingerprint.

Re: Apple’s Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can’t ‘Take the Fifth’

#30
post #7

I feel like the author of this article is missing the whole point of Fingerprint ID. The feature is meant to make using an iPhone more secure for those of us who tend to leave our phones unlocked and PIN-free. If you're storing anything of value on your phone, the existing password-based and PIN-based lock mechanisms aren't going away any time soon. If nothing else, it'd break too many organizations' Active Directory…

No, you're missing his point. You're in court. You refuse to admit/verify the accusation that you were in the vicinity of the deceased's home. Cell phone records, dutifully recorded and reported under warrant from NSA...er...ATT, show your phone - which you are known to carry pretty much everywhere - was in that vicinity at the crime's time. You contend that does not constitute evidence. The phone is acquired, bailif…

I think cbhl's point is perfectly valid, in the presentation of the feature, Apple states that about half of people leave their phones w/o a PIN. Touch ID is for these people and in general will make unauthorized access to iPhones more difficult.

Touch ID is optional, if a user feels particularly concerned, about legal implications of this, it is perfectly valid to revert to a passcode. I am glad that this article/discussion exists though, it is good to know what risks may exists using new security systems.

[Edited to add: just read somewhere else that after 48 hours of inactivity or a reboot, user must re-enter passcode before fingerprint will unlock the device. This would seem to protect from the case stated in the article.]

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