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Why the NBN needs to go the full way

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Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#21

Post by ekianjo »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #16
zmmmmm wrote: post #7

I'm not sure that is all accurate (umm, light and electricity travel at the same speed ...), but I agree with the central idea: fibre is the next generation of technology, copper is the last. We can fully expect that just as massive speed increases were achieved on copper, so too will they be on fibre. Gen 1 of fibre is already 10x better than the last generation of copper - how much better will generation 2, 3, 4 be…

umm, light and electricity travel at the same speed ... ? Light travels at ~299m/s. This will slow down in a medium like fibre, but it's still faster than anything else. At best, in a particle accelerator you can accelerate electrons to maybe 0.8, 0.9 c?

Surely you mean 299 000 000 meters/ second ?

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#22

Post by retrogradeorbit »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #16
zmmmmm wrote: post #7

I'm not sure that is all accurate (umm, light and electricity travel at the same speed ...), but I agree with the central idea: fibre is the next generation of technology, copper is the last. We can fully expect that just as massive speed increases were achieved on copper, so too will they be on fibre. Gen 1 of fibre is already 10x better than the last generation of copper - how much better will generation 2, 3, 4 be…

umm, light and electricity travel at the same speed ... ? Light travels at ~299m/s. This will slow down in a medium like fibre, but it's still faster than anything else. At best, in a particle accelerator you can accelerate electrons to maybe 0.8, 0.9 c?

Yes, but the electric field that forms as a circuit closes travels at the speed of light.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#23

Post by retrogradeorbit »

pugz wrote: post #17
zmmmmm wrote: post #7

I'm not sure that is all accurate (umm, light and electricity travel at the same speed ...), but I agree with the central idea: fibre is the next generation of technology, copper is the last. We can fully expect that just as massive speed increases were achieved on copper, so too will they be on fibre. Gen 1 of fibre is already 10x better than the last generation of copper - how much better will generation 2, 3, 4 be…

(I had to create an account to respond to this) "Light" and "electricity" only travel at the same speed in a vacuum. Neither fibre nor copper wire could reasonably be considered a vacuum; they have different propagation speeds. Also, we are far removed from "gen 1 of fibre", which was developed in 1970, i.e. 43 years ago. If anything, we're currently developing "fifth gen" fibre optics communications. Everything else…

Actually zmmmmm is correct about the speeds. The drift velocity of electrons in a conductor is quite low. Somewhere around 1 meter per second (its been a long time since my physics degree so it may not be exactly 1ms-1).

But what happens when you close a circuit of a conductor across a potential difference is an electric field is set up surrounding the conductor. This electric field accelerates all the electrons in the conductor at once. This is why even though the drift velocity of an electron in a conductor is very low, when you switch on a light switch the bulb lights immediately.

The propagation of the electric field is at the speed of light (its electromagnetism). So "electrons" move slowly but "electricity" moves at the speed of light.

Update: found a wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#24

Post by Wingman4l7 »

sien wrote: post #12
Wingman4l7 wrote: post #3

It's maddening to see a such a shortsighted attempt to cut costs by essentially un-future-proofing brand new infrastructure. Heck, why not replace the last leg with a couple of cans and a piece of string? It'd be even cheaper then! >. It's such a false economy!

Apparently you will be able to pay for fibre all the way yourself. Turnbull says about 2K, the ALP 5K. Delimeter seems to indicate toward the lower value. http://delimiter.com.au/2013/08/23/open-deception-albanese-c...

You can always pay for it yourself -- the questions are of course:

a) is it affordable

b) how many people will actually do so

c) would it be cheaper to do all at once?

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#25

Post by adamconroy »

schappim wrote: post #9
damian2000 wrote: post #2

Everyone in tech I know wants it, but the problem is also the speed of rollout - it would be several years on their current schedule before most people would get it. Probably a moot point too, given the likely outcome of the election.

Yeah I live on the North Shore in Sydney and there are currently "no plans" for the NBN in my area.

Yes but on the north shore you can already get 100mb cable internet.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#26

Post by pugz »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #23
pugz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I had to create an account to respond to this) "Light" and "electricity" only travel at the same speed in a vacuum. Neither fibre nor copper wire could reasonably be considered a vacuum; they have different propagation speeds. Also, we are far removed from "gen 1 of fibre", which was developed in 1970, i.e. 43 years ago. If anything, we're currently developing "fifth gen" fibre optics communications. Everything else…

Actually zmmmmm is correct about the speeds. The drift velocity of electrons in a conductor is quite low. Somewhere around 1 meter per second (its been a long time since my physics degree so it may not be exactly 1ms-1). But what happens when you close a circuit of a conductor across a potential difference is an electric field is set up surrounding the conductor. This electric field accelerates all the electrons in t…

That's true, but light only travels at ~0.67c in a fibre optic cable. That's why I mentioned that fibre optic cables and copper wires are not vacuums.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#27

Post by retrogradeorbit »

pugz wrote: post #26
retrogradeorbit wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually zmmmmm is correct about the speeds. The drift velocity of electrons in a conductor is quite low. Somewhere around 1 meter per second (its been a long time since my physics degree so it may not be exactly 1ms-1). But what happens when you close a circuit of a conductor across a potential difference is an electric field is set up surrounding the conductor. This electric field accelerates all the electrons in t…

That's true, but light only travels at ~0.67c in a fibre optic cable. That's why I mentioned that fibre optic cables and copper wires are not vacuums.

According to wikipedia, electric field propagation through unshielded copper is 0.95c to 0.97c. Electric field propagation through standard coaxial cable is 0.66c.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#28

Post by Wingman4l7 »

smutticus wrote: post #14

Australia has a chance to do something really amazing here. Shame it looks like they'll miss the chance. It's really only partly about fibre vs DSL. It's also about the new incentive structure that FTTH would create in the Australian broadband market. An FTTH NBN would be an economic game changer in AU.

Yes, god forbid that Telstra would actually have to work a bit for its bread.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#29

Post by 40 »

The difference between the two policies is ideology. ALP wants everyone to have same speeds regional/city, rich/poor, home/business. ALP wants fairness - this is their guiding ideology as a party in general. This obviously comes at an additional cost, scope and risk (lack of competition, cost-blowouts, etc.).

NLP is just less concerned with fairness and more concerned with cost/benefit even if that means that some people will not have access to the fastest possible internet.

Life is not fair. Look at private/public with respect to schools, uni, health insurance, taxation, etc. Top 25% earners pay 60% of tax. Some children will never be able to attend a private school. Some will never have access to certain treatments or medication. Some will never be able to afford the things they want.

Some people are okay with this, others are not. Both parties will work towards measurable outcomes but in the large areas of grey they fall back to their ideologies.

Yes, the benefits of FTTH are fantastic, but its important not to get swept up in thinking we must do something at all costs.

There are very sensitive assumptions that underpin the cost of the NBN which would change the cost of it substantially such as how many people sign up, how much they will be prepared to pay, etc. There are plenty of risks to the project and even more so considering the involvement of the government. These are just some reasons to be very considerate about the cost.

The ALP worries less about wasteful spending than the LNP. This is easy to do because its only in the long-term where we have to make tough spending decisions because of past wasteful spending.

In the same way you can't fathom the opportunities brought about by the NBN, you also can't fathom the future challenges to the country - ageing population, world population growth, climate change, war, etc.

The frustration the author feels about having a focus on cost/benefit and risk will only become apparent with time. I could argue for anything too if I didn't have to address how much it costs.

Re: Why the NBN needs to go the full way

#30

Post by Wingman4l7 »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #23
pugz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I had to create an account to respond to this) "Light" and "electricity" only travel at the same speed in a vacuum. Neither fibre nor copper wire could reasonably be considered a vacuum; they have different propagation speeds. Also, we are far removed from "gen 1 of fibre", which was developed in 1970, i.e. 43 years ago. If anything, we're currently developing "fifth gen" fibre optics communications. Everything else…

Actually zmmmmm is correct about the speeds. The drift velocity of electrons in a conductor is quite low. Somewhere around 1 meter per second (its been a long time since my physics degree so it may not be exactly 1ms-1). But what happens when you close a circuit of a conductor across a potential difference is an electric field is set up surrounding the conductor. This electric field accelerates all the electrons in t…

Thanks for the refresher -- I recall being taught this in HS physics but I've never repeated it because I didn't want to look like an idiot trying to explain how "electrons" don't move at the speed of light.
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