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Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

tomdale.net

21–30 of 263 posts

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#21
post #6

"And most importantly: Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app." This statement needs a huge, HUGE caveat that you should only be building 100% JavaScript apps in situations where doing so makes sense . For example, I find the new Blogger "web app" i…

Not to mention stuff like accessibility that ends up being an afterthought for a lot of people.

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#22
> Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app.

We all want wonderful experiences as users. The crux is almost a question of "how we want things to be" and "how we want to get there".

For me, the 100% JS MV movement is wonderful for a specific genre of app: An app that is:

* Behind an intranet

* Behind a paywall

* Behind a login-wall

* Prototypes / Demos / PoCs / etc.

But for the open web -- wikipedia, blogs, discussion forums, journalism (etc.) this movement detracts from the web as a whole, in that it excuses developers from having to worry about degraded and/or non-human consumption of their websites' data.

We have to ask ourselves what we, as humanity, want from the web. Do we really want a web of 100% bespoke JavaScript MV web-apps with no publicly consumable APIs nor semantic representations? If that is the intent and desire of the developers, designers and otherwise educated-concerned web-goers, then fine, let's do that and hope it works out okay...

But there is an alternative that has its roots already planted deep in the web -- the idea and virtue of a web where you can:

* Request an HTTP resource and get back a meaningful and semantically enriched representation

* Access and mash-up each-others' data, so as to better further understanding & enlightenment

* Equally access data and insight via any medium, the latest Chrome or the oldest Nokia

So, please, go ahead and create a 100% JS front-end but, if you are creating something for the open web, consider exposing alternative representations for degraded/non-human consumption. It doesn't have to be progressively enhanced.

Imagine for a moment if Wikipedia was one massive Ember App... And no, Wikipedia is not an exception from the norm -- it is the embodiment of the open web.

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#23
post #4

"Friendly reminder that "people with JS disabled" includes those on high-latency networks, bad firewalls, and browsers you don't support." - @jcoglan https://twitter.com/jcoglan/status/370173041193406464

I've thought about this.

If I have a blog or similar media site, and require javascript, I might offer a 15/month option to allow access to a text only interface and an RSS feed. No graphics, no pictures, a very simple link and text interface.

And the moment I start seeing subscriptions coming in, I'll believe in progressive enhancement again.

(Progressive enhancement doesn't affect me as an application developer in the web space. But if it did...)

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#24
post #20

This author is making an assumption that progressive enhancement exists only so that people who are browsing without Javascript can have a better experience. Of course, this isn't true. Progressive enhancement is a good thing because it encourages you to be as descriptive as possible at every layer of your technology stack. Why does it matter in practice? Well, there's more than one reason, but consider that not ever…

First, the accessibility argument is a red herring that I'm getting frustrated people continue to try to throw around. Screen readers support JS, okay? Let's put this argument to bed.

http://words.steveklabnik.com/emberjs-and-accessibility

Okay, thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

Second, one nice thing about "embracing 100% JavaScript" that I talk about in the post is that it requires you to implement a really solid JSON API, because your web site is now a true client that consumes an API. This makes it really easy to integrate with third-party services that consume your content. I agree that putting content behind JavaScript sucks; I'm just advocating that the content be JSON (or some other normalized format), not HTML.

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#25
post #21
post #6

"And most importantly: Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app." This statement needs a huge, HUGE caveat that you should only be building 100% JavaScript apps in situations where doing so makes sense . For example, I find the new Blogger "web app" i…

Not to mention stuff like accessibility that ends up being an afterthought for a lot of people.

Accessibility is a red herring. JavaScript apps work just fine with screen readers, especially if you support WAI-ARIA.

http://words.steveklabnik.com/emberjs-and-accessibility

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#26

> Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app. We all want wonderful experiences as users. The crux is almost a question of "how we want things to be" and "how we want to get there". For me, the 100% JS MV movement is wonderful for a specific genre of ap…

Strongly agree. The day that merely reading Wikipedia requires JavaScript will be the day that the open Web is dead.

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#27
post #6

"And most importantly: Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app." This statement needs a huge, HUGE caveat that you should only be building 100% JavaScript apps in situations where doing so makes sense . For example, I find the new Blogger "web app" i…

i m still opening a dozen tabs and reading them whenever i want, unfortunately most newer js only web blogs such as inc mobile, end up having a lot of errors and white pages..

i understand your newly found js excitement with your full ember.js app, but do'nt forget the lessons from java the browser plugin and flash.

1. ok you re real time, but don't assume i m watching your site like a tv

2. dont consume my precious cpu power.. otherwise app throttling will come to browser tabs..

3. dont end up in lots of clientside errors due to various problems, including local storage.. twitter mobile client is an abysmal example where tweets are lost on screen and inc mobile is another with empty ehite pages

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#28
post #6

"And most importantly: Don’t be ashamed to build 100% JavaScript applications. You may get some incensed priests vituperating you in their blogs. But there will be an army of users (like me) who will fall in love with using your app." This statement needs a huge, HUGE caveat that you should only be building 100% JavaScript apps in situations where doing so makes sense . For example, I find the new Blogger "web app" i…

You know, check out bustle.com -- I used to agree with you, but that's really fast for both the first load and subsequent loads.

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#29
Wow, the size of the Ember app vs. Typical webapp + JavaScript is impressive.

Inspecting the Bustle app with the new Chrome Ember Inspector is very cool.

Has Bustle open sourced any of their components or written on how they developed the app?

Re: Progressive Enhancement Is Dead

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, exactly, is the issue with writing a simple content site that requires JS? If you aren't pulling in half a MB of JS, but it does require scripting to function, I don't see the problem. Just because I could spend the effort to be progressive doesn't constrain me to have to do it. It doesn't make me a lazy programmer either: just pragmatic. 99.99% of the people visiting my site have JS enabled and I'm happy to su…

Javascript-dependent content _can_ present problems for search engine accessibility

There have been techniques for dealing with this for a very long time: https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/...

And this is only an issue for pages where you actually want to expose your content to search engines.

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